Let’s two of them die together
Blocking other search engines will hurt Reddit, all else held equal. But not by that much. Google is seriously dominant in the search engine market.
kagis
Yeah.
https://gs.statcounter.com/search-engine-market-share
According to this, Google has 91.06% of the search engine market. So for Reddit, they’re talking about cutting themselves off from a little under 9% of people searching out there. Which…I mean, it isn’t insignificant, but it isn’t likely gonna hurt them all that badly.
It’s also worth noting that the 9% they cut off was probably the group more inclined to already be using alternatives to Reddit anyways.
You underestimate the amount of average joes that use stuff like DuckDuckGo
Seconding this. I work in IT, and the number of tech-illiterate people using DuckDuckGo as their default search engine is astounding. It’s got to be about 10% of our users (none of whom are in tech roles).
Is there a downside? I’m confused.
Yes. They are making other search engines less useful through what is functionally an exclusivity deal. They are also relying on Reddit to function as useful results since they ruined google search over the past few years. They’ve enshittified their own product and now they are making it everyone else’s problem.
This is bad for anyone who thinks we should be able to search the internet without being locked into google. The door this opens is awful as well - what happens as this practice expands and you suddenly need multiple search engines to find things online? What happens when a search engine cuts a deal with news outlets?
What a mess.
I’m excited for this to start triggering anti-trust legislation
It obviously should, but it won’t, because the US is a capitalist dictatorship masquerading as a democracy. The oligarchy own the government, and the regulators.
But other search engines like Bing are also American capitalist corporations and they don’t want this I’m sure.
“sorry bro, I can’t search that website—it’s not covered by my subscription package”
I wonder what kind of contract they went with.
I can’t imagine this being a great long-term deal for Google. There’s minimal good new content being created on Reddit. Searching for useful information mostly brings up old posts, while new posts are heavily spam generated or designed to support AI learning.
I imagine buying access to historic reddit content from creation to ~2020 would be valuable. While paying for ongoing access to new content is going to be far less valuable and turn into AI devolution as we get to where AI is learning from other AI and spiraling into progressively worse outputs.
I wonder what kind of contract they went with.
SAN FRANCISCO, Feb 21 (Reuters) - Social media platform Reddit has struck a deal with Google (GOOGL.O) , opens new tab to make its content available for training the search engine giant’s artificial intelligence models, three people familiar with the matter said.
The contract with Alphabet-owned Google is worth about $60 million per year, according to one of the sources.
For perspective:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/google-reddit-60-million-deal-ai-training/
In documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Reddit said it reported net income of $18.5 million — its first profit in two years — in the October-December quarter on revenue of $249.8 million.
So if you annualize that, Reddit’s seeing revenue of about $1 billion/year, and net income of about $74 million/year.
Given that Reddit granting exclusive indexing to Google happened at about the same time, I would assume that that AI-training deal included the exclusivity indexing agreement, but maybe it’s separate.
My gut feeling is that the exclusivity thing is probably worth more than $60 million/year, that Google’s probably getting a pretty good deal. Like, Google did not buy Reddit, and Google’s done some pretty big acquisitions, like YouTube, and that’d have been another way for Google to get exclusive access. So I’d think that this deal is probably better for Google than buying Reddit. Reddit’s market capitalization is $10 billion, so Google is maybe paying 0.6% the value of Reddit per year to have exclusive training rights to their content and to be the only search engine indexing them; aside from Reddit users themselves running into content in subreddits, I’d guess that those two forms are probably the main way in which one might leverage the content there.
Plus, my impression is that the idea that a number of companies have – which may or may not be valid – is that this is the beginning of the move away from search engines. Like, the idea is that down the line, the typical person doesn’t use a search engine to find a webpage somewhere that’s a primary source to find material. Instead, they just query an AI. That compiles all the data that it can see and spits out an answer. Saves some human searcher time and reduces complexity, and maybe can solve some problems if AIs can ultimately do a better job of filtering out erroneous information than humans. We definitely aren’t there yet in 2024, but if that’s where things are going, I think that it might make a lot of strategic sense for Google. If Google can lock up major sources of training data, keep Microsoft out, then it’s gonna put Microsoft in a difficult spot if Microsoft is gunning for the same thing.
Cool, thank you. You seem to know quite a bit about this stuff.
If we do end up at a point without search engines, where AI does the search and summarizes an answer, what do you think their level of ability to tie back to source material will be?
I’m thinking in cases of asking about a technical detail for a hobby, “how do I get x to work”. I don’t necessarily want a response like “connect blue wire to red”. What I really want is the forum posts discussing the troubleshooting and solutions from various people. If an AI search can’t get me to those forums, it’s of little value to me and when I do figure out an answer acceptable to my application, I’m not tied into that forum to share my findings (and generate new content for the AI to index).
Related to that, I’m thinking about these stories of lawyers relying on AI to write their briefs, and the AI cites non-existent cases as if they were real. It seems to me, not at all a programmer, that getting an AI to the point where it knows what’s real and what’s a hallucination would be a challenge. And until we get to that point, it’s hard to put full trust into an AI search.
I’ve posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:
Just use ddg bangs if you use Duckduckgo and you can search reddit directly.
!reddit search termor:
!r search termIt still picks up latest posts related to reddit, it just searches reddit directly instead of searching Bing’s results. It’s that simple.
You can even use a redirect extension like Libredirect in conjunction with this Duckduckgo feature to redirect your search to a privacy respecting frontend like redlib.
DDG is awesome, been using it for years.
I used to sneer at the kids in my class that used it. Must have been fairly shortly after it launched, something like fourteen to fifteen years ago. I’m still grappling with a certain inertia when it comes to switching away from something I have relied on for so long, but I’m coming around to the idea of giving DDG a try at least (irrational as it is, I’ve been reluctant to even try - I suspect out of fear of liking it and having to change).
Past Me would be exasperated that Present Me is even toying with the idea. But then, Past Me had a lot of stupid takes anyway.
I went through the same process that you’re describing. In the end, I gave it a shot and, anecdotally, I feel like I find the things I’m looking for faster than I was with Google and with no shoddy ai summaries.
I like to say that DDG gives you what you searched for while google gives you what it thinks you wanted.
Makes sense they’ve spent years curating other people’s content and are now selling it… Oh wait 😯.
Ah, so Google signed a contract with the company that trained their AI to … (checks notes) … suggest putting glue on pizza.
Sounds like a perfect match.
I’d look at what will be, rather than what is. I think that it’s probably not controversial to say that AI is going to improve; these are early days. The question is to what extent.
If one is to assume that AI will improve very little over time, that ten years from now the kind of responses that you’ll get generated by a computer ten years hence in response to a question will be about the same as they are today, then, yeah, it’s probably an error to commit major resources to AI stuff or to expend resources acquiring training data for it.
But that assumption may not hold.
Block Reddit!
But muh porn!
Exactly. You’re addicted, Plopp.
With all the botting going on on Reddit, this whole Google AI deal makes me think of the recent paper that demonstrates that, as common sens would suggest, deep learning models collapse when successive generations are trained on the previous generations’ output
Oh well. Time to post more questions on lemmy
I’m seldom on reddit after the exodus, but when I am, I noscript the duck out of it.
You quack.
Actually, he doesn’t, since he’s removing the duck (and shipping it off to DuckDuckGo for reuse, no doubt).
Hi, I’m new here. Because of the bullshit with Reddit. Greetings fellow Lemmy people.
Welcome to our shithole.
Federated shithole(s)
Welcome aboard. It’s not much, but she’s got it where it counts.
Just like Reddit’s changes last year, seems like a clear and reasonaly expected consequence of ‘the our text is so valuable because AI’ idea.
The web will probably continue to become more gated and more fragmented as a result of that, plus trying to get more control to force ads.
I’m kind of curious to understand how they’re blocking other search engines. I was under the impression that search engines just viewed the same pages we do to search through, and the only way to ‘hide’ things from them was to not have them publicly available. Is this something that other search engines could choose to circumvent if they decided to?
Search engine crawlers identify themselves (user agents), so they can be prevented by both honor-based system (robots.txt) and active blocking (error 403 or similar) when attempted.
Thank you, I understand better now. So in theory, if one of the other search engines chose to not have their crawler identify itself, it would be more difficult for them to be blocked.
This is where you get into the whole webscraping debate you also have with LLM “datasets”.
If you, as a website host, are detecting a ton of requests coming from a singular IP you can block said address. There are ways around that by making the requests from different IP addresses, but there are other ways to detect that too!
I’m not sure if Reddit would try to sue Microsoft or DDG if they started serving results anyway through such methods. I don’t believe it is explicitly disallowed.
But if you were hoping to deal in any way with Reddit in the future I doubt a move like this would get you in their good graces.All that is to say; I won’t visit Reddit at all anymore now that their results won’t even show up when I search for something. This is a terrible move and will likely fracture the internet even more as other websites may look to replicate this additional source of revenue.
It’s still possible to search with “site:reddit.com …”
Has it been implemented yet or are they blocking non-flagged searches? Which seems odd.
You shouldn’t be getting any new results if you do that, older posts will/may remain indexed.
How many times is this going to be posted? I’ve seen this several times now over the past few days.
Sorry, I haven’t seen it. If it’s been posted here before, Send me the link to the previous post, and I’ll take this one down. Even better, you can report the post, and the mods will investigate it.
Thank you!
