Most of the useful things in milk are there because we artificially added them in. There is no real reason for this, it’s just what we have been doing for a long time
You can get all the vitamin D you need from just 10-30 minutes midday a few times a week.
Also, cow’s milk doesn’t naturally contain vitamin D. Vitamin D is added to cow’s milk and is even required by law in some countries (Canada and Sweden). Might as well just drink any milk alternative fortified with vitamin D.
You can get all the vitamin D you need from just 10-30 minutes midday a few times a week.
Sure, I’m not arguing against that. Just pointing out there aren’t that many sources. And there are a lot of reasons people can’t go outside whenever they want to, biggest one for me is it gets really cold during the winter. No way I’m going outside to hang out when it’s 10 degrees outside.
We have absolutely zero evolutionary need for milk past infancy. It’s all culture and marketing.
Just because we do those things you mentioned doesn’t mean they’re necessary. In fact, I assure you, neither clothes nor cooking are strictly necessary for an individual’s survival. They’re convenient and comfortable, but not physiologically necessary. Obviously we’d freeze in cold climates, but there are plenty of places on earth we could survive well enough without.
We do need vitamin D to survive, but you can literally just get it directly from sunlight. The more time you spend inside, and the more thoroughly you clothe yourself, the more likely you are to need to supplement it. Simple as. You only need 30m outside 3x a week (2hrs in winter regions).
Another funny thing about milk, is that all the natural vitamin A and D is removed in processing. They literally have to re-fortify it again, so the only reason it’s billed as this “healthy” thing is because it’s basically a lab-made liquid vitamin.
If we think about this way, yes it is indeed pretty weird but it has really great nutrients which are crucial for children to grow in a healthy way (in moderation just like with any other food, fruit, vegetable).
I think milk has vitamins and nutrients as well, vitamins and nutrients that can be easily supplemented by other dietary sources.
It’s much more the fact that it’s just day to day normal to drink breast milk from other animals.
“What do you like to drink?”
“Milk.”
“What’s that?”
“This breast juice from other animals. It’s super healthy for the percentage of our population that can digest it.”
“Oh…Why from other animals?”
“Well, we’re not going to drink human breast milk, that would be gross. I mean, we give it to babies. Cow and goat lactation, though, that’s for grown-ups.”
I don’t think “it’s weird therefore bad” is a good argument. If you’re gonna argue for veganism (which I don’t have a problem work doing!) I think there are way, way better reasons.
“it’s weird and should be more stigmatized” that seems to be making a moral claim right? I guess you never explicitly said that it’s because it’s weird that it should be stigmatized, but it certainly seemed to be structured like that.
And ah maybe I misunderstood, what you were saying just sounds like how a lot of ppl talk about it on the vegan forums I used to regular, lmao.
I’m not sure what triggers a moral defense there, except for the traditional context of the word “stigma”, maybe? Yeah, might have taken it one assumption too far.
I guess you can make a moral argument against drinking milk because of factory farming infrastructure, but even with factory farming I think anyone would find it easier to argue against the mass slaughter in horrific conditions before the milk charge would make waves.
Even though drinking xeno-boob-juice is super weird.
So you used to be a vegan? Or you just crashed their forums?
Yeah I was talking about milks too. Probably it’s relatively easy to supplement milk with other sources but are those choice economically viable? Protein powders are a bit expensive + as an average joe, payin 3x+ more for plant based milk products are bit too much for me currently, but a 2x could convince me to opt for a plant based one. I’m not really knowledgable in this area, there must be some other options too for replacing milk in a cost effective way.
Yeast is the way to look in terms of a realistic cost effective nutritious alternative to milk that tastes and feels similar. I think anyway. Synthesized yeast proteins, acids and fats is a pretty interesting field.
We can just program yeast to incorporate a certain amount of D3, or whatever other detail of nutrition we care for, within the milk or other substance they produce.
Oh, it’s super cool. Scientists were able to persuade yeasts to produce all sorts of things in small colonies decades ago, but there are actual companies now that the technology has matured that are trying to bring yeast farms into commercial scale. And yeasts are so variable in their strains and productions that you could basically make a yeast produce any combination of protein, fats and acids that you’d like. They’re hoping to synthesize biodegradable plastics, milks, it sounds like nearly anything organic should be able to be synthesized via yeast.
Well, yes, since we already do that. And human milk is at least from our species.
I personally think that would be very weird, but less weird than drinking the breast milk of other species.
I’ll refer you to another response from this wonderfully lively thread:
"“What do you like to drink?”
“Milk.”
“What’s that?”
“This breast juice from other animals. It’s super healthy for the percentage of our population that can digest it.”
“Oh…Why from other animals?”
“Well, we’re not going to drink human breast milk, that would be gross. I mean, we give it to babies. Cow and goat lactation, though, that’s for grown-ups.”"
Not dissing your argument at all, but my first thought was of babies eating little pieces of human flesh and it made me giggle. Well now that I wrote I down it just sounds freaky, but in my head it sounded silly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You’re trying to make it seem like drinking milk is weird because it comes from an animal other than humans. But nearly all the food anyone eats comes from something that’s not a human.
You’re also ignoring one of the big reasons we don’t drink human milk for longer - most human mothers stop producing milk after a certain length of time, whereas cows and goats and the like produce it more regularly, for longer periods of time.
You only think they don’t because we force-impregnate the eugenics cows to be pregnant and lactating all the time. When they have their babies, the baby is taken away immediately and the cow is force-impregnated again 6 weeks later. After a few years, the cow is killed and becomes deli meat.
That is a strange horror show you are cheerleading for as “normal”.
Also, stop pretending I’m saying things I’m not. It didn’t work for the others and it won’t work for you.
Fair enough. Like the other commenter said in response, it’s good to remember that weird doesn’t mean bad, but you’re not wrong, it is pretty weird lol. The world is a goofy place :)
Agreed, there are tons of weird and goofy things everywhere. They don’t bother me, but I notice and appreciate them.
Drinking milk from other species is just one of the most common weird ones and one that I don’t think we examine fundamentally often enough haha. Plus I always think it’s funny.
I always think of that. Tom Green skit where he drank milk straight from the udder of a cow and the ostensible joke is like look how crazy this guy is that he’s willing to drink milk straight from the cow!
But that’s basically what everybody is doing, in my head anyway whenever I see someone drinking milk. It’s fun up there, in my head.
Don’t appeal to evolution, evolution is weird. Evolution just does whatever survival says. If we can survive drinking milk, evolution is cool with it. But evolution is weird, evolution will be all like “You like cows milk huh? That’s cool, have you considered shrinking down and losing your brain and most internal organs to become a nipple latching milk parasite? No? Ok, I’ll ask again later.”
Adapted I think is a better term than evolved. Most people would be lactose intolerant if they stopped drinking milk after being weened off of breast milk.
Eh I feel like that is semantics. If we are specific and refer to how individuals adapt to be lactose tolerant, you could still say “humans evolved to drink milk” instead in reference to how the population of humans that could adapt and become lactose tolerant grew in relation to humans that couldn’t.
What gives you the idea that eating animal meat is unintentional?
I can think of plenty of examples of one animal eating the meat of another, but only one example of a majority of a species drinking the breast milk of another species.
So yeah, drinking milk seems weirder to me than eating meat.
Because you alleged that meat is not something I was intended to eat, which doesn’t really track with the uncountable natural examples of predator and prey for all of knowable history.
I love milk in my tea and cream in my coffee not to mention ice cream but it’s still meant for helping calfs grow quickly into cows at the same time. We are talking huge gains quickly here.
Some argue it’s why north American kids grow up so much faster and bigger than our Asian counterparts where milk and cheese is not as huge part of their diets. The kids hit puberty sooner too as a result. That’s changing in other parts of the world as cheese and milk make their ways into the diets even in places that never understood why Americans eat so much cheese on everything.
Low fat products created enormous sources of removed fat that could be turned into all kinds of dairy products including cheeses. It’s also heavily subsidized by government too. Dairy is so cheap in the US as a result compared to even Canada.
I don’t guzzle milk anymore like I did as a teen due to the amount of phlegm the body can create with its consumption. I’ve never forgotten a health video years ago that equated milk to drinking a glass of puss due to the things done to cows to make commercial milk.
I guess in my mind cheese is adjacent but not milk, but that’s just fooling myself as I eat my cheese.
It’s a huge industry in the west and I don’t think we will ever not see how great milk is for us. A lot is dedicated to keep those consumption numbers up and I do like my dairy products.
Sure. Glugging down the lactation of other species intended for their babies is weird. It’s weird and should be more stigmatized.
We need vitamin D3, and there aren’t that many sources you can get it from.
Most of the useful things in milk are there because we artificially added them in. There is no real reason for this, it’s just what we have been doing for a long time
You can get all the vitamin D you need from just 10-30 minutes midday a few times a week.
Also, cow’s milk doesn’t naturally contain vitamin D. Vitamin D is added to cow’s milk and is even required by law in some countries (Canada and Sweden). Might as well just drink any milk alternative fortified with vitamin D.
Sure, I’m not arguing against that. Just pointing out there aren’t that many sources. And there are a lot of reasons people can’t go outside whenever they want to, biggest one for me is it gets really cold during the winter. No way I’m going outside to hang out when it’s 10 degrees outside.
All other mammals not drinking milk past infancy: Am I a joke to you?
Literally all you need to do is touch grass a few times a week.
that’s not a good argument. Other animals doesn’t cook food or wear clothes.
we do, since both things are older than our species, so we evolved this way. We’d die without cooking and clothes.
domestic animals and drinking milk are a newer thing, but our species do this weird things all the time.
that being said, vitamin D can be foud elsewhere lol
We have absolutely zero evolutionary need for milk past infancy. It’s all culture and marketing.
Just because we do those things you mentioned doesn’t mean they’re necessary. In fact, I assure you, neither clothes nor cooking are strictly necessary for an individual’s survival. They’re convenient and comfortable, but not physiologically necessary. Obviously we’d freeze in cold climates, but there are plenty of places on earth we could survive well enough without.
We do need vitamin D to survive, but you can literally just get it directly from sunlight. The more time you spend inside, and the more thoroughly you clothe yourself, the more likely you are to need to supplement it. Simple as. You only need 30m outside 3x a week (2hrs in winter regions).
Another funny thing about milk, is that all the natural vitamin A and D is removed in processing. They literally have to re-fortify it again, so the only reason it’s billed as this “healthy” thing is because it’s basically a lab-made liquid vitamin.
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Why are you looking through 7 month old posts for stuff to get mad about? Get a life bruh.
We have absolutely zero evolutionary need for chocolate. It’s all culture and marketing.
We have absolutely zero evolutionary need for coffee. It’s all culture and marketing.
We have absolutely zero evolutionary need for beer. It’s all culture and marketing.
You can apply that to virtually anything we consume that isn’t plants or meat.
We have absolutely zero evolutionary need for Lemmy. It’s all tankies and linux users.
Hey now! I’ll have you know that only about a third of my computers run Linux right now
Yes, exactly, now you’re getting it! Glad we agree. The entire argument being made here is a purely normative one, not of necessity.
If we think about this way, yes it is indeed pretty weird but it has really great nutrients which are crucial for children to grow in a healthy way (in moderation just like with any other food, fruit, vegetable).
I think milk has vitamins and nutrients as well, vitamins and nutrients that can be easily supplemented by other dietary sources.
It’s much more the fact that it’s just day to day normal to drink breast milk from other animals.
“What do you like to drink?”
“Milk.”
“What’s that?”
“This breast juice from other animals. It’s super healthy for the percentage of our population that can digest it.”
“Oh…Why from other animals?”
“Well, we’re not going to drink human breast milk, that would be gross. I mean, we give it to babies. Cow and goat lactation, though, that’s for grown-ups.”
I don’t think “it’s weird therefore bad” is a good argument. If you’re gonna argue for veganism (which I don’t have a problem work doing!) I think there are way, way better reasons.
I agree, can you point me to whichever commenter told you it was bad?
I’m not big into veganism myself, but feel free to spread your vegan wings here if you like.
Seems as appropriate a place as any.
“it’s weird and should be more stigmatized” that seems to be making a moral claim right? I guess you never explicitly said that it’s because it’s weird that it should be stigmatized, but it certainly seemed to be structured like that.
And ah maybe I misunderstood, what you were saying just sounds like how a lot of ppl talk about it on the vegan forums I used to regular, lmao.
If the original comment was truly a sarcasm then I give a huge applause for Varyk. It’s certainly 200 IQ level.
I’m not sure what triggers a moral defense there, except for the traditional context of the word “stigma”, maybe? Yeah, might have taken it one assumption too far.
I guess you can make a moral argument against drinking milk because of factory farming infrastructure, but even with factory farming I think anyone would find it easier to argue against the mass slaughter in horrific conditions before the milk charge would make waves.
Even though drinking xeno-boob-juice is super weird.
So you used to be a vegan? Or you just crashed their forums?
Yeah I was talking about milks too. Probably it’s relatively easy to supplement milk with other sources but are those choice economically viable? Protein powders are a bit expensive + as an average joe, payin 3x+ more for plant based milk products are bit too much for me currently, but a 2x could convince me to opt for a plant based one. I’m not really knowledgable in this area, there must be some other options too for replacing milk in a cost effective way.
Supplements are cheaper than milk. If the main concern is about d3, you can buy hundreds of high dose d3 supplements for like 10 bucks.
I’m checking.
Costco, no sale, 500 iu d3, 600 gels.
CVS, 5$, 400iu d3 for 100 gels.
Supplements are pretty available.
Protein? Meat. Quinoa. Protein is easier and cheaper, but d3 is straightforward and available also.
Yeah these are good options, though I’m an europoor I believe you, but personally I’m more likely interested in a milk alternative.
Yeast is the way to look in terms of a realistic cost effective nutritious alternative to milk that tastes and feels similar. I think anyway. Synthesized yeast proteins, acids and fats is a pretty interesting field.
We can just program yeast to incorporate a certain amount of D3, or whatever other detail of nutrition we care for, within the milk or other substance they produce.
Damn yeast as a viable alternative? Now that was an unexpected one, thank you for the info!
Oh, it’s super cool. Scientists were able to persuade yeasts to produce all sorts of things in small colonies decades ago, but there are actual companies now that the technology has matured that are trying to bring yeast farms into commercial scale. And yeasts are so variable in their strains and productions that you could basically make a yeast produce any combination of protein, fats and acids that you’d like. They’re hoping to synthesize biodegradable plastics, milks, it sounds like nearly anything organic should be able to be synthesized via yeast.
Yeah, check it out, yeast farming is super cool.
Peak Lemmy for me is reading shit like this and being unsure if it is a joke or not
Hahaha, me too.
I do think it is super weird to drink the breast milk of other animals. At the same time, I wouldn’t say that it’s a topic I take very seriously.
Are you saying it’d be less weird to glug down human milk?
Well, yes, since we already do that. And human milk is at least from our species.
I personally think that would be very weird, but less weird than drinking the breast milk of other species.
I’ll refer you to another response from this wonderfully lively thread:
"“What do you like to drink?”
“Milk.”
“What’s that?”
“This breast juice from other animals. It’s super healthy for the percentage of our population that can digest it.”
“Oh…Why from other animals?”
“Well, we’re not going to drink human breast milk, that would be gross. I mean, we give it to babies. Cow and goat lactation, though, that’s for grown-ups.”"
You could make a similar argument as to why we eat animal meat instead of human meat and it would be just as stupid.
Not dissing your argument at all, but my first thought was of babies eating little pieces of human flesh and it made me giggle. Well now that I wrote I down it just sounds freaky, but in my head it sounded silly ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
Go on?
You’re trying to make it seem like drinking milk is weird because it comes from an animal other than humans. But nearly all the food anyone eats comes from something that’s not a human.
You’re also ignoring one of the big reasons we don’t drink human milk for longer - most human mothers stop producing milk after a certain length of time, whereas cows and goats and the like produce it more regularly, for longer periods of time.
Cows also stop producing milk naturally.
You only think they don’t because we force-impregnate the eugenics cows to be pregnant and lactating all the time. When they have their babies, the baby is taken away immediately and the cow is force-impregnated again 6 weeks later. After a few years, the cow is killed and becomes deli meat.
That is a strange horror show you are cheerleading for as “normal”.
Also, stop pretending I’m saying things I’m not. It didn’t work for the others and it won’t work for you.
Fair enough. Like the other commenter said in response, it’s good to remember that weird doesn’t mean bad, but you’re not wrong, it is pretty weird lol. The world is a goofy place :)
Agreed, there are tons of weird and goofy things everywhere. They don’t bother me, but I notice and appreciate them.
Drinking milk from other species is just one of the most common weird ones and one that I don’t think we examine fundamentally often enough haha. Plus I always think it’s funny.
I always think of that. Tom Green skit where he drank milk straight from the udder of a cow and the ostensible joke is like look how crazy this guy is that he’s willing to drink milk straight from the cow!
But that’s basically what everybody is doing, in my head anyway whenever I see someone drinking milk. It’s fun up there, in my head.
What am I supposed to wash this peanut butter down with; human milk? Disgusting!
Water? The thing adult humans evolved to drink.
Don’t appeal to evolution, evolution is weird. Evolution just does whatever survival says. If we can survive drinking milk, evolution is cool with it. But evolution is weird, evolution will be all like “You like cows milk huh? That’s cool, have you considered shrinking down and losing your brain and most internal organs to become a nipple latching milk parasite? No? Ok, I’ll ask again later.”
A good chunk of human adults also evolved to drink milk, my dude.
Adapted I think is a better term than evolved. Most people would be lactose intolerant if they stopped drinking milk after being weened off of breast milk.
Eh I feel like that is semantics. If we are specific and refer to how individuals adapt to be lactose tolerant, you could still say “humans evolved to drink milk” instead in reference to how the population of humans that could adapt and become lactose tolerant grew in relation to humans that couldn’t.
More weird than eating other things not intended for you to eat like animal meats?
Weirder? Sure.
What gives you the idea that eating animal meat is unintentional?
I can think of plenty of examples of one animal eating the meat of another, but only one example of a majority of a species drinking the breast milk of another species.
So yeah, drinking milk seems weirder to me than eating meat.
Nobody born intended to be eaten by others. Why is that even a question?
Because you alleged that meat is not something I was intended to eat, which doesn’t really track with the uncountable natural examples of predator and prey for all of knowable history.
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I love milk in my tea and cream in my coffee not to mention ice cream but it’s still meant for helping calfs grow quickly into cows at the same time. We are talking huge gains quickly here.
Some argue it’s why north American kids grow up so much faster and bigger than our Asian counterparts where milk and cheese is not as huge part of their diets. The kids hit puberty sooner too as a result. That’s changing in other parts of the world as cheese and milk make their ways into the diets even in places that never understood why Americans eat so much cheese on everything.
Low fat products created enormous sources of removed fat that could be turned into all kinds of dairy products including cheeses. It’s also heavily subsidized by government too. Dairy is so cheap in the US as a result compared to even Canada.
I don’t guzzle milk anymore like I did as a teen due to the amount of phlegm the body can create with its consumption. I’ve never forgotten a health video years ago that equated milk to drinking a glass of puss due to the things done to cows to make commercial milk.
I guess in my mind cheese is adjacent but not milk, but that’s just fooling myself as I eat my cheese.
It’s a huge industry in the west and I don’t think we will ever not see how great milk is for us. A lot is dedicated to keep those consumption numbers up and I do like my dairy products.