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Oh, I wouldn’t if I could avoid it. The “fun” of tinkering with IT stuff in my very limited spare time vaporized many years ago. If I could pay for services that did exactly what I wanted, respected my privacy, and valued my business while charging a fair price, I would stop self-hosting tomorrow. But that’s not usually how it works.
Self hosting isn’t super high maintenance once you get everything set up but it still takes up probably 10-12 hours per month on average and I would not mind having that time back.
With Proton you could get emails, calendar, contacts, drive for a fair price and good privacy, for example.
I like the idea, but I don’t like that everything is tied to a single account. If it’s compromised so are your emails, calendar, contacts, files, and passwords. But the service is good enough to replace Google, and choosing between the two, I’d choose Proton.
Mail servers are the one thing I refuse to self host. Years of managing enterprise email taught me that I don’t need that kind of negativity in my life
I agree. I was thinking about using different services for different tasks instead of putting everything into the same basket. I’m not self-hosting an email server either.
If you self-host all the same services you have the same exposure level if root on your hosting machine is compromised. I suppose it depends on how confident you feel in how agile you can patch if a vulnerability becomes known in postfix for example. I wouldn’t consider self hosting something that reduces your cybersecurity risk typically
That’s true. But as we were speaking about an external service (Proton), I was thinking about diversification. I use Proton for emails, but I don’t use Proton Pass opting for another external password manager.
I agree that it would be very bad if your Proton account got compromised with so much data tied to it. However, I’m personally comfortable with a strong password and 2FA for my Proton account.
Let’s start with the basics: is dev.to self hosted? 😁
No, dev.to points to 151.101.194.217 which is an IPv4 that belongs to Fastly Inc
Fastly is also a CDN. The fact that a website is behind Fastly doesn’t imply that it isn’t selfhosted at all.
So you mean Fastly is providing CDN servers which cache the content of dev.to and then serve them to the visitor on their servers?
Well yeah that’s not self hosting.
Of course it would be self hosting. If the website isn’t hosted on fastly, and is hosted by an individual, that would be the definition of self hosting. You’re also assuming that Fastly is caching responses, do you know that for certain?
Literally all you’ve done so far is resolve the host name to a DNS record. You think you’ve done something, but you haven’t.
lol what the fuck is your problem? How about you do something and explain to me how you self host a CDN hosted by fastly???
When did I resolve the Hostname to a DNS record? Are you fucking stupid you obviously don’t know what you are talking about. I resolved it’s domain to an IPv4 address which points entirely to a fastly server. It’s not a resource that get’s delivered by CDN, it’s the whole fucking website they are serving, which is a service they sell and that’s not self hosting.
God damn why am I even spending my time arguing with someone that didn’t understand the basics yet. If you think a domain is a hostname and an IPv4 address is a DNS record, just back off and return to the books. You probably feel so cool and think you have done something, which you did, you ridiculed yourself.
You clearly don’t understand a single thing about how the internet works and are very confused. Let me help you out.
how you self host a CDN hosted by fastly???
You don’t? The website is what would be self hosted. Not Fastly.
When did I resolve the Hostname to a DNS record? … I resolved it’s domain to an IPv4 address which points entirely to a fastly server
Right there. You resolved the host record, probably an A record or ANAME for the website (dev.to) into an IPv4 address, using DNS.
It’s not a resource that get’s delivered by CDN, it’s the whole fucking website they are serving, which is a service they sell and that’s not self hosting.
Here’s what you’re critically misunderstanding about this. Just because you resolve the record for a website and the IP that’s returned belongs to fastly does not mean fastly is hosting the content. You literally haven’t done anything to prove that the website isn’t self-hosted on a computer in some guys garage. You’re making assumptions based on ignorance and using those assumptions to gatekeep self hosting because you don’t even know what you don’t know. It’s very possible that site isn’t self hosted, but so far you haven’t actually found any proof of that like you think you have.
If you think a domain is a hostname and an IPv4 address is a DNS record
A domain can have several host records of different types including one at the root of the domain. What you’re resolving isn’t “a domain” it’s a single record for that domain, and its associated IP address is contained in the DNS record. If you’d like to familiarize yourself with this system, try this: https://www.dummies.com/book/technology/information-technology/networking/general-networking/dns-for-dummies-292922/
It’s clear that you’re a hobbyist with very little understanding of how the internet and self hosting works on a fundamental level and that’s ok. But I recommend instead of wasting your energy being confidently wrong very publicly for the purpose of gatekeeping, you use that energy to learn how these things actually work instead.
touché
I get that. And I self host the things I care about. But for the average layman? I don’t see self hosting as a real option. Unless you are decently tech savvy, and have an aptitude for troubleshooting, most people aren’t gonna put in the time or effort of initial setup. Even if maintenance is minimal once it’s running. That first leap into self-hosted is daunting.
I think of it this way… would I expect my dad to be able to do it? Absolutely not. And my dad is decently tech savvy for 70.
The first step is normalising the idea of privacy so people can even see the point of paying for something they can easily get for free.
The next step would be to make products people can easily use without being tech savvy. A synology NAS has been great for me and I praise the setup to anyone who will listen, but even with something like Synology people will need some basic knowledge.
YunoHost is trying to make it easier than a synology NAS to install services and get them setup properly but I agree that to configure your network properly is difficult and everyone’s setup is different so specific knowledge is required.
Yeah yunohost is pretty great for less than 10 users. Perhaps more depending on the service. Its very easy to get setup in a weekend with a plethora of services. And its pretty stable.
Don’t forget that self hosting without proper knowledge is more dangerous than just giving away data to the big techs!
Trying to run your own nextcloud be like
Nextcloud was somewhat difficult for me the first time I installed it, though I did have a usable system in the end. Then I discovered Nextcloud AIO and haven’t had an issue since.
I don’t get this counter-argument. Is TFA actually suggesting that the average grandma quit using Yahoo mail or Facebook and set up her own email server and mastodon instance? The only people even considering self-hosting are people with technology interest and reasonable passion. It’s an article written for a niche techie website, and we’re discussing it on a forum for self-hosting nerds.
The counter-argument is like saying the average layman should stick to televised football, because they don’t have the physical savvy or aptitude for the game, and most people aren’t gonna put in the time or effort to build their strength & endurance to compete. It may be an accurate statement, but the people you’re addressing (grandma) weren’t TFA’s target audience and weren’t even going to try in the first place, and you discourage people who might really enjoy giving the hobby a try.
That first leap into self-hosted is daunting.
the first leap you take into anything is daunting.
This is just called complacency. You can literally just pick up whatever the fuck you want, and start learning it.
Someday I hope we have a server technology that’s platform-agnostic and you can just add things like “Minecraft Server” or “Email Server” to a list and it’ll install, configure, and host everything in the list with a sensible default config. I imagine you could make the technology fairly easily, although keeping up with new services, versions, security updates, etc. would be quite the hassle. But that’s what collaboration is for!
As someone who has had a career in hosting: good luck.
Don’t forget backups, logging, monitoring, alerting on top of security updates, hardware failure, power outages, OS updates, app updates, and tech being deprecated and obsolete at a rapid pace.
I’m in favor of a decentralized net with more self-hosting, but that requires more education and skill. You can’t automate away all the unpleasant and technical bits.
You can’t automate away all the unpleasant and technical bits.
But it’s our job to try
But if we hide the complexity, surely we won’t ever have to deal with it! /s
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Neat!
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Honestly at this point that is docker and docker compose.
As to what to run it on that very much depends on preference. I use a proxmox server but it could just as easily be pure Debian. A basic webui like cockpit can make system management operations a bit more simplified.
Unraid does this via docker. It’s amazing. You can do this live and on the fly.
Sounds kinda like NixOS, although that’s not platform-agnostic.
Funnily enough I do use NixOS for my server! It’s not quite what I was describing but it does allow me to host easily.
An article telling people to self host read only by those who already self host. Okay.
Welcome to the internet, where people try their best to find people with the same opinions so they can feel good and get pissed when they can’t.
I think it’s so people here can give themselves a pat on the pack for self hosting lol.
Like how the Linux Lemmy community has so many “Windows is bad, Linux is good” posts. Practically everyone in there already knows that Linux is good.
I stopped reading after this line.
Raspberry Pi won’t do unfortunately, unless you run up to 4 lightweight containers.
Does the author know how much compute power a Raspberry Pi 5 has? If the software that just hosts personal data can’t run in Raspberry Pi 5, that should be a terrible software. For most people and their families, a RPi5 is enough to host anything that they would ever need.
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Perhaps this was written much earlier than v5.
May 27th 2024? O.o
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Are you planning on self hosting this article? Perhaps on writefreely?
It really bugs me in general how often the term “home lab” is conflated with a “home server”, but in the context of what this article is trying to communicate, it’s only going to turn the more casually technical people it’s trying to appeal to off.
For many people, their home lab can also function as a server for self hosting things that aren’t meant to be permanent, but that’s not what a home lab is or is for. A home lab is a collection of hardware for experimenting and prototyping different processes and technologies. It’s not meant to be a permanent home for services and data. If the server in your house can’t be shut down and wiped at any given time without any disruption to or loss of data that’s important to you, then you don’t have a home lab.
Based on what I’ve seen, I’d also say a homelab is often needlessly complex compared to what I’d consider a sane approach to self hosting. You’ll throw all sorts of complexity to imitate the complexity of things you are asked to do professionally, that are either actually bad, but have hype/marketing, or may bring value, but only at scales beyond a household’s hosting needs and far simpler setups will suffice that are nearly 0 touch day to day.
Oh yeah like that’s part of it. If this article is supposed to be a call to action, somebody who starts looking into “homelabs” is going to get confused, they’ll get some sticker shock, and they won’t understand how they apply to what’s said in the article. They’ll see a mix of information from small home servers to hyperconverged infrastructure, banks of Cisco routers and switches, etc. my first home lab was a stack of old Cisco gear I used to study for my network engineering degree. If you stumbled upon an old post of mine talking about my setup and all you’re looking for is a Plex box you’ll be like “What the fuck is all this shit, I’m not trying to deal with all that”
“Self hosting”, and “home server” are just more accurate keywords to look into and actually see things more closely related to what you want.
Yep, and I see evidence of that over complication in some ‘getting started’ questions where people are asking about really convoluted design points and then people reinforcing that by doubling down or sometimes mentioning other weird exotic stuff, when they might be served by a checkbox in a ‘dumbed down’ self-hosting distribution on a single server, or maybe installing a package and just having it run, or maybe having to run a podman or docker command for some. But if they are struggling with complicated networking and scaling across a set of systems, then they are going way beyond what makes sense for a self host scenario.
i mean, technically a home lab is just something you mess with. So if you’re setting up a home server to get into learning about this shit.
It would technically be a homelab.
Only if nothing on it is permanent. You can have a home lab where the things you’re testing are self hosted apps. But if the server in question is meant to be permanent, like if you’re backing up the data on it, or you’ve got it on a UPS you make sure it stays available, or you would be upset if somebody came by and accidentally unplugged it during the day, it’s not a home lab.
A home lab is an unimportant, transient environment meant for tinkering, prototyping, and breaking.
A box that’s a solution to something, that’s hosting anything you can’t get rid of at a moments notice, is just a home server.
I still use the label ‘homelab’ for everything in my house, including the production services. It’s just a convenient term and not something I’ve seen anyone split hairs about until now.
if nothing on it is permanent. You can have a home lab where the things you’re testing are self hosted apps. But if the server in question is meant to be permanent, like if you’re backing up the data on it, or you’ve got it on a UPS you make sure it stays available, or you would be upset if somebody came by and accidentally unplugged it during the day, it’s not a home lab.
A home lab is an unimportant, transient environment me
i don’t know if i really like that definition. Going by the definition of a laboratory, it doesn’t really make much sense. I mean sure they’re a sterile environment, but it’s incredibly unlikely that a lab is wiped clean and built from scratch, unless you get millions of dollars, and a lot of free time, i guess.
A lab is merely a place to do work with regard to studying, learning, or improving something.
People often refer to their “homelab” as an entire server rack, you want me to believe that people are willing to wheel out their entire server rack and discard the entire fucking thing? I doubt it. A homelab is just a collection of gear, (usually commercial networking gear) intended for providing an environment for you to mess around with things and learn about stuff.
In some capacity a homelab has to be semi permanent, if not for anything other than actually testing reliability and functionality of services and hardware, for the actual services themselves, because a part of the lab, is the service itself.
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I self host a lot, but I host a lot on cheap VPS’s, mostly, in addition to the few services on local hardware.
However, these also don’t take into account the amount of time and money to maintain these networks and equipment. Residential electricity isn’t cheap; internet access isn’t cheap, especially if you have to get business class Internet to get upload speeds over 10 or 15 mbps or to avoid TOS breaches of running what they consider commercial services even if it’s just for you, mostly because of of cable company monopolies; cooling the hardware, especially if you live in a hotter climate, isn’t cheap; and maintaining the hardware and OS, upgrades, offsite backups for disaster recovery, and all of the other costs. For me, VPS’s work, but for others maintaining the OS and software is too much time to put in. And just figuring out what software to host and then how to set it up and properly secure it takes a ton of time.
Residential electricity isn’t cheap
This is a point many folks don’t take into account. My average per Kwh cost right now is $0.41 (yes, California, yay). So it costs me almost $400 per year just to have some older hardware running 24x7
Omg, I pay 30€ for 1Gb/0.7Gb (ten more for symmetrical 10Gb, I don’t need it and can’t even use more than 1Gb/s but my inner nerd wants it) and 0.15€/KWh.
BTW the electricity cost is somewhat or totally negated when you heat your apartment/house depending on your heating system. For me in the winter I totally write it off.
This sounds excessive, that’s almost 1.1$/day, amounting to more than 2kWh/24hrs, ie ~80W/hr? You will need to invest in a TDP friendly build. I’m running a AMD APU (known for shitty idle consumption) with Raid 5 and still hover less than 40W/h.
This sounds excessive, that’s almost 1.1$/day, amounting to more than 2kWh/24hrs, ie ~80W/hr? You will need to invest in a TDP friendly build. I’m running a AMD APU (known for shitty idle consumption) with Raid 5 and still hover less than 40W/h.
This isn’t speculation on my part, I measured the consumption with a Kill-a-watt. It’s an 11 year old PC with 4 hard drives and multiple fans because it’s in a hot environment and hard drive usage is significant because it’s running security camera software in a virtual machine. Host OS is Linux MInt. It averages right around 110w. I’m fully aware that’s very high relative to something purpose built.
You will need to invest in a TDP friendly build
Right, and spend even more money.
I think the main culprit is CPU/MB, so that’s the only thing needed a replacement. Many cheap alternatives (less than 200$) that can half the consumption and would pay itself in a year of usage easily. There is a Google doc floating around listing all the efficient CPUs and their TDPs. Just a suggestion, I’m pretty sure after a year it would payoff its price, there is absolutely no need for a 110w/h unless you’re running LLMs on that and even then it shouldn’t be that high.
Sigh, kinda… but don’t forget to factor in your backup costs too
On a financial aspect, self hosting is more expensive most of the time, if you convert time to money, even if you calculate using less than 100$ per hour (In my country we charge about 200$ per work hour)
Should we do that though? I’m choosing between playing PS5 and configuring my home server. I’m not being paid for either of that. But skills I obtain while tinkering with the server actually help me with some tasks at work.
Sure, you can compare to what else you would do in that time slot, but money would be the more general thing (you can compare better, since everything is in the base of money)
Back to your example: time spent on each task is equal -> same value invested but output may have different value (game skills/progress vs IT skills/progress)
So since investing value is the same for both task, you can ignore that part and concentrate on the output.
Depends on how you calculate costs. Like, I have Kodi running on a RPi for home entertainment/theater. There’s no way to outsource that, but the RPi is idle most of the time. Adding services to it is effectively or marginally free, except for my time, and there’s still a significant time cost to get paid, off-site cloud services set up.
But charging for your own time is kind of disingenuous. You don’t include your time in the cost of eating (a Big Mac worth $60??), watching a video, or going on vacation. The only people self-hosting have a personal, hobby/entertainment interest in it, and I think it’s more accurate to compare the costs of self hosting with the costs of other forms of entertainment. Do you get more fun-value out of the costs of self hosting or out of a theater ticket?
Well, you can calculate how much money you would make in the time you do hobby, entertainment and eating. And I bet, “everyone” includes some people, that see setting up home/private IT not as hobby, for those people the comparison is like spending time x or paying amount x (data or/and money) (you could compare it to housekeeping) In such cases it makes sense to give the spent time a value in data or money, so that it is comparable
Maybe you spend time on selfhosting and now you have less time for other things that need to be done and now you have to outsource it (for money) giving time as well calculateable value
I do self-host some services but it bugs me that a lot of articles that talk about costs do not factor in a lot of additional costs. Drives for NAS need replacement. Running NUCs means quite an energy draw compared to most ARM based SBCs.
And it dismisses the time component of self hosting. It’s not going to be zero.
I recently decided to get more serious about self hosting and gotta say,
use TrueNAS scale, just do it, literally everything is 1 click… While it can be complicated, it is most definitely worth it, not just to stick it to big tech, but because some of the selfhosted apps genuinely provide a better experience than centralized alternatives. NextCloud surprised me especially with how genuinely nice it is. Installed it, got an SSL certificate and replaced google services almost entirely in a few hours of work.I’ve still got a few things I wanna do which look very complicated… Stuff like a mail server and pfsense (the stuff of nightmares) are among the 1st on my list…
OPNSense is generally pretty easy, more powerful, and more open than pfsense. I started with pf but went to OPNSense and have loved it!
I’ve tried both and both were hell
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I am very much into the nitty gritty of Linux (I use Alpine fyi) the problem is, pf/opnsense aren’t based on Linux…
And I also don’t really know how to set them up… Yk as routers, mainly because my internet comes through PPPoE and I just cannot for the life of me figure out how to pass that through to a VM. I bound the VM to its own NIC, did everything, did not work…
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I already have my own network with stuff and things… it’s mostly just the simple stuff (TrueNAS scale, pihole, wireguard, nextcloud and other things like that). But yeah, outside my mac, I have literally 0 experience with BSD…
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Honestly, I found it really easy. I don’t have a background in IT or anything either.
What did you find difficult? Setting custom firewall rules is harder to understand, but the general functionality of setting up a NAT and even installing and configuring ZenArmor were super super easy.
I do host some stuff myself 😉 but there’s one thing to keep in mind.
Don’t self host stuff that your family still needs after you’re gone. Unless they are self host nerds like you. I stopped self hosting our mail and docs for example.
Would you agree?
All of these types are articles always leave out the calculations of what your time is worth to you and the maintenance costs of spare hard drives and other equipment. The TCO is not just the initial investment in hardware/software alone. Unless you plan to host something unreliably and value your time at nothing. In which case I hope you don’t get friends or family hooked on your stuff or everyone will have a bad time and be back to Google Drive/Docs and Netflix within 5 years.
The reason they leave it out I feel is because once you factor all of that stuff in the $10/month your paying for Google Drive storage or the ~$25 your paying Netflix starts to make a lot more sense when pared with a decent local backup from a Synology NAS for the “I can’t lose this” stuff like baby pictures of your kids. Which blows their entire premise out of the water.
Unfortunately he is not talking about security?
