I love chicken, pork, and beef. I have tried the meat alternatives and I like most of what I have tried. I would be vegetarian if it honestly wasn’t so expensive sometimes. Not to say meat isn’t also expensive.
I work with a guy who is a vegan and honestly. I don’t get the hate towards the life style. Guy is as healthy as they get and morally more sound in the area of food than I am.
What am I missing on Vegan hate or even vegetarian hate. No one imposes on me. Honestly, I feel like they have something figured out I dont.
There is a small vocal minority that essentially equates anyone who keeps eating meat regardless of circumstances, preference or nuance, [to killers, murderers, etc]. Honestly a large amount of people would take a vegan option if it tasted the same, had the same texture, was as cheap or cheaper than meat, was as accessible, and didn’t require learning a new skill set. There’s also the availability when eating out.
Antagonizing people like that is a good way to have them disagree out of spite, and the militant vegans always have a way of inserting themselves into every conversation. I had to block people on lemmy because I just didnt want to deal with that here.
Unfortunately a vegan who is a good person isn’t alwayd out there proselytizing at every chance they get in a non intrusive manner, so people rarely if ever see vegans who are reasonable people relative to vegan extremists.
Honestly a large amount of people would take a vegan option if it tasted the same, had the same texture, was as cheap or cheaper than meat, was as accessible, and didn’t require learning a new skill set.
And businesses would stop burning fossil fuels if renewables had the same portability, same output, were cheaper, available everywhere, and didn’t require learning a new skill set. They can still be criticised for doing so, I’m not sure what your point here is?
Unfortunately a vegan who is a good person isn’t alwayd out there proselytizing at every chance they get in a non intrusive manner,
That’s the thing imo, if a vegan is alwayd out there proselytizing atevery chance they get then they are by default not a good person even if they do it in a supposed non intrusive manner and are by default vegan extremists imo. Proselytizing is in and of itself intrusive by definition imo, like ads.
Here specifically or in general? In general, nothing. Most well adjusted people don’t form negative opinions about others based on their dietary choices.
On Lemmy specifically, the Vegan sub was promoting the idea that feeding obligate carnivores (cats) a strictly vegan diet is a totally rad thing to do. It’s not. They’re going to kill their damn cats.
Everyone who keeps posting this ignores that there has been vegan cat food for years, supplemented with necessary vitamins etc and backed up with scientific research. They didn’t make it up out of thin air as you seem to be implying. Sceptism or disagreement is fine. Painting the other side as lunatics is not.
Everything from it being very hard to balance the nutrients in these foods, in a production sense, to veterinary science not being complete on what is needed for proper diet. The foods available aren’t great, and making it yourself is generally worse. Most of the reports of the animals being perfectly fine, when allowed to be closely monitored by experts, show that, while they appear fine, they likely to suffer long term consequences to their health, and often die of them. however it takes a long time, so regardless of the average lifespan decrease, which is abstract, and hard for a general pet owner to quantify, since the cats lived for years, people assumed it was fine. There is also a lot of mis/disinformation from the pro side on the actual QOL of the animals, both because they aren’t experts to know, and, to a lesser extent, data gets fudged to support their goals. This is not to say that the same can’t be said of the con side.
Sure, and good information for the discussion. This was my point: everyone was acting like vegans are actively delusional in feeding cats vegan food. While there are very much valid criticisms you can have, most people are not engaging with the facts, or with even a modicum of respect. Thank you for not being a part of that.
Oh yeah, for every vegan that just beats everyone around them, over the head, with their veganism, there are 100, or more, people who go out of their way to insult, and offend, vegans. I have seen far more people do things like try to slip animal products in food, secretly, to make vegans eat it, go out of their way to over indulge in meat because there is a vegan there, and just talk shit, than any vegan proselytizing.
Ultimately I just think that, as it currently stands, allowing animals to have meat, if they are natural carnivores, is better than alternatives. When they get good enough, sure, move on with it.
I do think veganism has had their representation taken over by the loudest, and most obnoxious, elements, but that can be said about nearly every lifestyle, or belief system. This, to a lesser extent, and other things, to a greater extent, is why I hope being able to synthetically produce animal products, will come to fruition. I honestly do not believe most of society can be convinced to be vegan. If the end of humanity isn’t a convincing argument… well I don’t know what is.
They are a small, harmless minority. Isn’t that enough? Maybe it’s made worse by the fact that they are perceived as non-violent and effeminate, because of their strong opposition to suffering, even when the victims are helpless, like animals. There is no personal risk in bullying them. It’s like the hate for environmental activists, trans-women, or liberals in general. I wouldn’t know that vegans aggressively proselytize their life-style if people didn’t aggressively tell me so; something that they share with “the gays”. Of course, people wouldn’t mind if they didn’t shove it in their faces all the time. Where have I heard that before?
Sure, but maybe they would, if you instead of liking ate their body parts and would pay an industry to kill them for that purpose? We can only speculate.
Yes, I’m quite aware vegans have a reason to be upset. Unfortunately, equating eating meat or drinking milk to personally murderering and torturing animals is not going to earn them any fans, and will in fact push people away from their just cause out of spite.
That’s not at all relevant to the comment I was responding to, though.
I mean, you are paying someone else to do those things for you. Or if you want to quibble over verbs, paying someone else to cause harm to animals for you.
If it’s not currently possible for you to eat a less harmful diet, that’s one thing. There’s a ton of ways that our lifestyles can cause harm, and it’s perfectly fine if you’re just not in a good place to change one particular aspect of it. Refusing to acknowledge the harm that you are causing is frankly much more concerning. From understanding comes action, after all.
I mean, you are paying someone else to do those things for you.
That’s not exactly what’s going on. I believe a more apt way to describe it would be paying somebody that has harmed animals. This may sound like a distinction without a difference, but I don’t believe it is. Whether I buy pork at a grocery store or not, they aren’t going to kill any fewer pigs because of it. It’s not like the slaughterhouse is going to butcher exactly one less pig because I stopped buying meat. If I decide not to buy pork chop the next time I go to a store, either somebody else buys the pork, it’s donated to a food bank right before expiry, or it’s just thrown away. The pig is already dead, and the meat goes somewhere regardless.
Unless you’re the type of person that eats meat every day, there is very little change you can make at an individual level. Of course, much like voting, change starts to happen once you get a lot of people to make that individual choice. Get 20 people to stop buying pork, and the store might order less. But at that point, I would argue it is far more of a societal issue. So while we are directly responsible for what happens to farm animals, I don’t think it’s at the level of us literally killing them ourselves.
Pardon me for fighting you on this, but I believe you are incorrect. You’re abdicating your responsibility, in assuming that those animals will always be killed.
Put it this way. If you lived next to a chicken farm, and drove over there any time you needed a chicken, and watched them kill it for you, would you have any qualms about saying it was killed for you? Why does having it go through a grocery store first somehow change this? However you get your meat, those animals were still killed for your benefit.
The average American eats about 250 pounds of meat in a year. That’s a bit over half a cow, or about one and a half pigs, or somewhere north of a hundred chickens. That’s the butcher’s bill, directly attributable to the average American. So to take your own words - yes, if you stop eating meat, exactly one pig will not be killed every year. Around one and half, actually.
Believing that animals are just like us s hardly and outlandish belief, on the facts. We’re evolutionarily closely related. We have basically the same skeleton. Skull, spine, rib cage, hips, 4 extremities. Arms and legs go: 1 big bone, 2 smaller bones, and lotsa little bones. It looks to be the same with the brain.
We expect vegans not to blow up slaughterhouses or such. Fair enough. But expecting them to shut up about their beliefs is a bit much, no? Expecting them not to tell people how they feel, not to kiss in public, or hold a pride para… Sorry, wrong prosecuted minority.
I’ve heard these takes about vegans for literal decades now, and not once has an actual vegan popped up to tell me that I’m a murderer.
Okay? The ONLY thing I mentioned was them calling people murderers. Glad you haven’t, but I have had that happen. Another thing I’ve seen that I have issue with is vegans pushing their diets on their carnivorous pets. Like cats. But I have literally no problem with 99% of vegans expressing their beliefs.
Yes, I’m quite aware vegans have a reason to be upset.
their just cause
Like I said. I even think they’re usually in the right. While I’m not a vegan for my own personal reasons, I hope they eventually make a positive change in the world.
Well, it’s what they believe. What exactly is the problem there? I have never been called a murderer. There just aren’t that many vegans around. I don’t know in what kind of circles this would be a common occurrence.
At first, I was confused. Isn’t the fact that you believe something the only justification for saying something? I mean, otherwise you’d be lying. But you’re saying you disagree with the belief in the first place, right?
No, I’m making the same point as @redisdead. Everyone says things because they believe them. That doesn’t make what they say correct/valid/etc just because of that belief. I actually think that veganism is a morally good position, but the justification of that position being “because I believe it” means literally nothing.
Vegans believe that animals have the same rights to live as humans. A nazi believes that the “others” do not have the same right to live as “his people”.
I don’t think you’ll be able to convince me that these are morally or ethically equivalent positions. But I see the point. They both believe the wrong thing. The out-group sucks. Yes, I know how humans tick.
So what you’re saying is, their belief in their position doesn’t make it right/wrong. It’s the position itself that makes it right/wrong. That’s what we’ve been trying to say.
I don’t hate vegans in general. I hate it when they prostelytize at me and try to shame me into being vegan. And this it the problem many people have. There is a vocal minority of vegans that will attack others for not sharing their lifestyle (I’m looking at you, PETA). I have no interest in giving up meat. I will pick more sustanable meat sources sure, but i will not be attacked for my choices.
Don’t come after me, I won’t come after you. I likely will even try to bring a vegan option to a pot luck for you.
I mean, that’s kind of saying you’re going to delibrately drive a Hummer because it ‘fits your lifestyle’, and then getting annoyed when people point out it’s incredibly wasteful and dangerous. There’s a certain point where you have to acknowledge reality, yah?
Reality is you are not going to convince the entire world to turn to a vegan lifestyle. Period. And if you attack people for not wanting to change, you are going to make them resist that change more.
We don’t have the economics for everyone to suddenly become vegan - it’s fucking expensive. We also don’t have the nutritional education for everyone to suddenly become vegan. People have to be willing to research that in order to not malnourish themselves. And most people are simply too lazy to do that.
Not to mention the massive amounts of food deserts in the country that would make finding vegan options for a fully vegan diet impossible.
Asking everyone in the world to live off vegetables and supplements is insane. We are not there as a society yet. And I have no intention of driving a hummer. It’s too damn expensive.
Just like eating a proper vegan diet is if you’re actually trying to meet all your nutrients.
Again, if you view reality - in this case, that vegan diets are better for the environment and for animal welfare - as an ‘attack’… well I really don’t know what to tell you. It really seems like something you need to handle on your own? Don’t get mad at people for pointing out that the sky is blue and the grass is green.
I will take issue with the idea that vegan diets are more expensive. This is largely an artifact of Americans thinking you need to eat the overpriced ‘fake meat’ - really, fake beef, as they never seem to include mock duck. You don’t. It’s not even slightly necessary. As someone who has been vegetarian for years, I always roll my eyes a little bit when people talk about it.
I can make chili out of a few cans of beans, some onion and bell pepper, and chili powder. Or tacos from black beans, roasted sweet potatoes, and pico de gallo. Or stir fry with mock duck from a can and frozen vegetables. Or curry with tofu and curry powder. Or a huge number of other things that are all very cheap.
As for supplements…B12. A bottle of 100 pills is about 5 bucks. That’s it.
To address your point about inavailablity…I have to laugh. Historically, meat has always been harder to obtain. A lot of vegan foods are vegan simply because people weren’t able to get meat. If you’re talking about prepared food like fast food, etc - sure, a lot of places don’t even bother to have vegan options. But again, if you’re trying to live off of takeout, you’re really shooting yourself in the foot as far as cost goes. Just make some chili with cornbread and chill.
I love chicken, pork, and beef. I have tried the meat alternatives and I like most of what I have tried. I would be vegetarian if it honestly wasn’t so expensive sometimes. Not to say meat isn’t also expensive.
I work with a guy who is a vegan and honestly. I don’t get the hate towards the life style. Guy is as healthy as they get and morally more sound in the area of food than I am.
What am I missing on Vegan hate or even vegetarian hate. No one imposes on me. Honestly, I feel like they have something figured out I dont.
There is a small vocal minority that essentially equates anyone who keeps eating meat regardless of circumstances, preference or nuance, [to killers, murderers, etc]. Honestly a large amount of people would take a vegan option if it tasted the same, had the same texture, was as cheap or cheaper than meat, was as accessible, and didn’t require learning a new skill set. There’s also the availability when eating out.
Antagonizing people like that is a good way to have them disagree out of spite, and the militant vegans always have a way of inserting themselves into every conversation. I had to block people on lemmy because I just didnt want to deal with that here.
Unfortunately a vegan who is a good person isn’t alwayd out there proselytizing at every chance they get in a non intrusive manner, so people rarely if ever see vegans who are reasonable people relative to vegan extremists.
Keyword is small. It’s important not to extrapolate against a populace based on the actions of their extremist or reactionary members.
It’s difficult when the small minority is much louder than the majority.
But isn’t that what racist say to explain away their racism?
No?
It’s true.
And businesses would stop burning fossil fuels if renewables had the same portability, same output, were cheaper, available everywhere, and didn’t require learning a new skill set. They can still be criticised for doing so, I’m not sure what your point here is?
That’s the thing imo, if
a veganisalwayd out there proselytizing at every chance they getthen they are by default nota good personeven if they do it in a supposednon intrusive mannerand are by defaultvegan extremistsimo. Proselytizing is in and of itself intrusive by definition imo, like ads.I think that’s what they said. Also is your ` key broken
clearly workinglmaoOf courseMostly bandwagon hate because of a vocal minority. TBH I find it amusing the people who really ride it act just like they are complaining about.
Also strict diets require more nutritional knowledge that some seem to be lacking.
The vegan hate likely comes from people who dont really know vegans or only know them from the internet so they only know the vocal minority
I know several vegans and they’re all cool. The terminally online militant ones suck.
Oh, I’ve met some annoying ones in real life.
Here specifically or in general? In general, nothing. Most well adjusted people don’t form negative opinions about others based on their dietary choices.
On Lemmy specifically, the Vegan sub was promoting the idea that feeding obligate carnivores (cats) a strictly vegan diet is a totally rad thing to do. It’s not. They’re going to kill their damn cats.
Everyone who keeps posting this ignores that there has been vegan cat food for years, supplemented with necessary vitamins etc and backed up with scientific research. They didn’t make it up out of thin air as you seem to be implying. Sceptism or disagreement is fine. Painting the other side as lunatics is not.
Vegan cat food being safe isn’t exactly an uncontested thing in the scientific/medical community.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=vegan foods for cats
Everything from it being very hard to balance the nutrients in these foods, in a production sense, to veterinary science not being complete on what is needed for proper diet. The foods available aren’t great, and making it yourself is generally worse. Most of the reports of the animals being perfectly fine, when allowed to be closely monitored by experts, show that, while they appear fine, they likely to suffer long term consequences to their health, and often die of them. however it takes a long time, so regardless of the average lifespan decrease, which is abstract, and hard for a general pet owner to quantify, since the cats lived for years, people assumed it was fine. There is also a lot of mis/disinformation from the pro side on the actual QOL of the animals, both because they aren’t experts to know, and, to a lesser extent, data gets fudged to support their goals. This is not to say that the same can’t be said of the con side.
Sure, and good information for the discussion. This was my point: everyone was acting like vegans are actively delusional in feeding cats vegan food. While there are very much valid criticisms you can have, most people are not engaging with the facts, or with even a modicum of respect. Thank you for not being a part of that.
Oh yeah, for every vegan that just beats everyone around them, over the head, with their veganism, there are 100, or more, people who go out of their way to insult, and offend, vegans. I have seen far more people do things like try to slip animal products in food, secretly, to make vegans eat it, go out of their way to over indulge in meat because there is a vegan there, and just talk shit, than any vegan proselytizing.
Ultimately I just think that, as it currently stands, allowing animals to have meat, if they are natural carnivores, is better than alternatives. When they get good enough, sure, move on with it.
I do think veganism has had their representation taken over by the loudest, and most obnoxious, elements, but that can be said about nearly every lifestyle, or belief system. This, to a lesser extent, and other things, to a greater extent, is why I hope being able to synthetically produce animal products, will come to fruition. I honestly do not believe most of society can be convinced to be vegan. If the end of humanity isn’t a convincing argument… well I don’t know what is.
But, this is just my opinion.
why are you copy pasting the same comment
Because it fit both comments, so might as well save the work
They are a small, harmless minority. Isn’t that enough? Maybe it’s made worse by the fact that they are perceived as non-violent and effeminate, because of their strong opposition to suffering, even when the victims are helpless, like animals. There is no personal risk in bullying them. It’s like the hate for environmental activists, trans-women, or liberals in general. I wouldn’t know that vegans aggressively proselytize their life-style if people didn’t aggressively tell me so; something that they share with “the gays”. Of course, people wouldn’t mind if they didn’t shove it in their faces all the time. Where have I heard that before?
The vocal minority of gays don’t call me a murderer for liking women.
Sure, but maybe they would, if you instead of liking ate their body parts and would pay an industry to kill them for that purpose? We can only speculate.
Yes, I’m quite aware vegans have a reason to be upset. Unfortunately, equating eating meat or drinking milk to personally murderering and torturing animals is not going to earn them any fans, and will in fact push people away from their just cause out of spite.
That’s not at all relevant to the comment I was responding to, though.
I mean, you are paying someone else to do those things for you. Or if you want to quibble over verbs, paying someone else to cause harm to animals for you.
If it’s not currently possible for you to eat a less harmful diet, that’s one thing. There’s a ton of ways that our lifestyles can cause harm, and it’s perfectly fine if you’re just not in a good place to change one particular aspect of it. Refusing to acknowledge the harm that you are causing is frankly much more concerning. From understanding comes action, after all.
That’s not exactly what’s going on. I believe a more apt way to describe it would be paying somebody that has harmed animals. This may sound like a distinction without a difference, but I don’t believe it is. Whether I buy pork at a grocery store or not, they aren’t going to kill any fewer pigs because of it. It’s not like the slaughterhouse is going to butcher exactly one less pig because I stopped buying meat. If I decide not to buy pork chop the next time I go to a store, either somebody else buys the pork, it’s donated to a food bank right before expiry, or it’s just thrown away. The pig is already dead, and the meat goes somewhere regardless.
Unless you’re the type of person that eats meat every day, there is very little change you can make at an individual level. Of course, much like voting, change starts to happen once you get a lot of people to make that individual choice. Get 20 people to stop buying pork, and the store might order less. But at that point, I would argue it is far more of a societal issue. So while we are directly responsible for what happens to farm animals, I don’t think it’s at the level of us literally killing them ourselves.
Pardon me for fighting you on this, but I believe you are incorrect. You’re abdicating your responsibility, in assuming that those animals will always be killed.
Put it this way. If you lived next to a chicken farm, and drove over there any time you needed a chicken, and watched them kill it for you, would you have any qualms about saying it was killed for you? Why does having it go through a grocery store first somehow change this? However you get your meat, those animals were still killed for your benefit.
The average American eats about 250 pounds of meat in a year. That’s a bit over half a cow, or about one and a half pigs, or somewhere north of a hundred chickens. That’s the butcher’s bill, directly attributable to the average American. So to take your own words - yes, if you stop eating meat, exactly one pig will not be killed every year. Around one and half, actually.
Believing that animals are just like us s hardly and outlandish belief, on the facts. We’re evolutionarily closely related. We have basically the same skeleton. Skull, spine, rib cage, hips, 4 extremities. Arms and legs go: 1 big bone, 2 smaller bones, and lotsa little bones. It looks to be the same with the brain.
We expect vegans not to blow up slaughterhouses or such. Fair enough. But expecting them to shut up about their beliefs is a bit much, no? Expecting them not to tell people how they feel, not to kiss in public, or hold a pride para… Sorry, wrong prosecuted minority.
I’ve heard these takes about vegans for literal decades now, and not once has an actual vegan popped up to tell me that I’m a murderer.
Okay? The ONLY thing I mentioned was them calling people murderers. Glad you haven’t, but I have had that happen. Another thing I’ve seen that I have issue with is vegans pushing their diets on their carnivorous pets. Like cats. But I have literally no problem with 99% of vegans expressing their beliefs.
Like I said. I even think they’re usually in the right. While I’m not a vegan for my own personal reasons, I hope they eventually make a positive change in the world.
Well, it’s what they believe. What exactly is the problem there? I have never been called a murderer. There just aren’t that many vegans around. I don’t know in what kind of circles this would be a common occurrence.
I’m sorry but this is a dogshit justification in nearly every situation
At first, I was confused. Isn’t the fact that you believe something the only justification for saying something? I mean, otherwise you’d be lying. But you’re saying you disagree with the belief in the first place, right?
I’m saying that the idea that something is justified because it is believed makes no sense. Apologies for being unclear.
Ok, I understand. You don’t like them because of their beliefs.
No, I’m making the same point as @redisdead. Everyone says things because they believe them. That doesn’t make what they say correct/valid/etc just because of that belief. I actually think that veganism is a morally good position, but the justification of that position being “because I believe it” means literally nothing.
Yet when a right wing cunt says what he believes about minorities, that’s a problem.
Vegans believe that animals have the same rights to live as humans. A nazi believes that the “others” do not have the same right to live as “his people”.
I don’t think you’ll be able to convince me that these are morally or ethically equivalent positions. But I see the point. They both believe the wrong thing. The out-group sucks. Yes, I know how humans tick.
So what you’re saying is, their belief in their position doesn’t make it right/wrong. It’s the position itself that makes it right/wrong. That’s what we’ve been trying to say.
Animals massively outnumber us. It’s not our fault they are cowards and can’t organize a rebellion properly.
I don’t hate vegans in general. I hate it when they prostelytize at me and try to shame me into being vegan. And this it the problem many people have. There is a vocal minority of vegans that will attack others for not sharing their lifestyle (I’m looking at you, PETA). I have no interest in giving up meat. I will pick more sustanable meat sources sure, but i will not be attacked for my choices.
Don’t come after me, I won’t come after you. I likely will even try to bring a vegan option to a pot luck for you.
I mean, that’s kind of saying you’re going to delibrately drive a Hummer because it ‘fits your lifestyle’, and then getting annoyed when people point out it’s incredibly wasteful and dangerous. There’s a certain point where you have to acknowledge reality, yah?
Reality is you are not going to convince the entire world to turn to a vegan lifestyle. Period. And if you attack people for not wanting to change, you are going to make them resist that change more.
We don’t have the economics for everyone to suddenly become vegan - it’s fucking expensive. We also don’t have the nutritional education for everyone to suddenly become vegan. People have to be willing to research that in order to not malnourish themselves. And most people are simply too lazy to do that.
Not to mention the massive amounts of food deserts in the country that would make finding vegan options for a fully vegan diet impossible.
Asking everyone in the world to live off vegetables and supplements is insane. We are not there as a society yet. And I have no intention of driving a hummer. It’s too damn expensive.
Just like eating a proper vegan diet is if you’re actually trying to meet all your nutrients.
Again, if you view reality - in this case, that vegan diets are better for the environment and for animal welfare - as an ‘attack’… well I really don’t know what to tell you. It really seems like something you need to handle on your own? Don’t get mad at people for pointing out that the sky is blue and the grass is green.
I will take issue with the idea that vegan diets are more expensive. This is largely an artifact of Americans thinking you need to eat the overpriced ‘fake meat’ - really, fake beef, as they never seem to include mock duck. You don’t. It’s not even slightly necessary. As someone who has been vegetarian for years, I always roll my eyes a little bit when people talk about it.
I can make chili out of a few cans of beans, some onion and bell pepper, and chili powder. Or tacos from black beans, roasted sweet potatoes, and pico de gallo. Or stir fry with mock duck from a can and frozen vegetables. Or curry with tofu and curry powder. Or a huge number of other things that are all very cheap.
As for supplements…B12. A bottle of 100 pills is about 5 bucks. That’s it.
To address your point about inavailablity…I have to laugh. Historically, meat has always been harder to obtain. A lot of vegan foods are vegan simply because people weren’t able to get meat. If you’re talking about prepared food like fast food, etc - sure, a lot of places don’t even bother to have vegan options. But again, if you’re trying to live off of takeout, you’re really shooting yourself in the foot as far as cost goes. Just make some chili with cornbread and chill.