They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, “one rape every six minutes,” “not all men but always a man,” and “giving in is not consenting.”
They chant: “Rapist we see you, victim we believe you.”
Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.
The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over “rape culture” and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.
not all men but always a man
Pointless sexist bullshit and wrong on its face. I never understood the drive some people have to paint abusive behavior as exclusive to men.
Exactly. If anything, signs like these drag the attention away from the actual issue.
I mean this thread is a good example of that and why such signs are bad
And pray tell, what exactly is the “real” issue?
Men and women being victims of sexual abuse, perpetrated by both men and women. It is not a genderlocked issue.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
Those are the kinds of numbers that come from laws defining rape as penetration and then only counting convictions.
Kind of like how the US had zero married women that were victims of rape by their husbands when it wasn’t a crime for husbands to rape their wives.
that quote you gave was taken entirely out of context. here’s the very next sentence:
In presenting our findings, we argue that a comprehensive look at sexual victimization, which includes male perpetration and adds female perpetration, is consistent with feminist principles in important ways.
No but the number of assaults by men far outweigh the number by women. And that Scientific American article is just your way of brushing off the fact that men are the primary offenders when it comes to sexual assault. You are exactly like the gun enthusiasts who throw the statistics on mental illness as the true cause of gun deaths and not the guns they use.
Edit: Just cause you seem to be including that link everywhere you post here I’m going to include this link to the 2024 study of sexual assault in France.
https://www.statista.com/topics/8875/violence-against-women-in-france/#topicOverview
“Primary” does not mean “always” however
Oh yeah, you got me there. Statistically small number of women who commit sexual assault completely absolves all men of being complicit in the sexual assault committed by mostly men. We definitely have to correct our perceptions on that one. Sure okay.
Sorry you’re getting this reaction. I am a man who was abused by women and all the support groups lead to me taking to a room full of women about it. Do men come forward less often? Yes. It would have to be like 1 in 100 men coming forward for it to be equal. I’ve had one other male friend who has been assaulted, but over half of the women I’ve been friends with have.
If it helps anyone with that being anecdotal, you have to look at the statistics of who is doing it: people in power. Just that alone means more men simply have the opportunity. Add to that that men are told sex is power, and that men who have sex often are virile, whereas women who do are slut shamed. It’s getting better, but still far off.
Anyway I’ll take the downvotes, but every statistic we have shown is that men are the primary antagonist in the vast majority of sexual assault against both men and women.
hey as a guy who was assaulted, please stop saying all men are complicit. do you understand what you’re saying when you say that?
Sexual assault is bad. Apparently you disagree.
I guess it’s sometimes done in the spirit of forcing men to really consider their actions, because most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men. And we usually have plenty excuses for our own abusive behavior. So it is like saying: “no, stop with the excuses, the problem is you”, in the hopes that this message will also reach its intended audience, ie the many men who are abusive to women in one way or another and, largely, in denial.
But I agree, these kinds of slogans annoy the hell out of me too and are totally not helpful in more ways than one, e.g., when men seek protection from abuse. I guess there are better ways of making a more forceful point about holding men accountable.
There’s a comedian who told a story, that I feel almost every guy can tell as if it was theirs…
They had that friend in their friends group. You know, the kne always making misogynic jokes etc. Well, yeah, that guy eventually raped someone.
You know where he says it was his, the comedian’s, fault? The whole group always laughed at those jokes, or maybe didn’t laugh, but definitely didn’t dismiss them, didn’t lecture the guy, didn’t tell him it was not ok.
There’s this men’s club where misogyny is an accepted business as usual. And it enables deranged individuals.
So, as a man who’s aware of the statistics, you can start doing some prevention: shame other men for misogyny.
Oh, and btw, fuck the lady with sign. She’s a petty sexist using someone’s tragedy to support her hate for men.
As a man, “that” guy initially received physical consequences, and is now locked in a box. All the people that made that happen also identified as men. It’s almost like rape is bad and everyone agrees, including men.
I don’t think that slogan communicates what you’re saying here well, if at all
most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men
I’m sure most if not all abusers are in denial and don’t consider themselves abusers, but this slogan gives a pass to ones who happen to be women by insisting that they don’t exist at all.
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yeah, that 4% of sexual assaults being committed by women that are being totally ignored by the media is the REAL problem.
I can’t speak for how their “sexual violence” criterion is defined, but as for the “rape” statistic, most western countries (France probably included) define rape for reporting purposes as “forced penetration”, specifically excluding “forced envelopment” from the statistic, and thereby excluding practically all male rape victims with female perpetrators from crime statistics.
For example, here are the statistics for sexual violence in the year 2011, according to the CDC (note that these are for the US, and may be significantly different for France, though the reporting method is likely the same - there’s also a 2013 CDC report with effectively the same numbers for the US):
an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
And
The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.
Added together, we see that 7.1% of women and 5.1% of men reported being victims of sexual violence in 2011. That is, 58% of victims of all sexual violence in 2011 were women, and 42% were men. For every 3 female victims, there were 2 male victims.
Now on to the frequently cited claim that more than 95% of perpetrators are men. From the “Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators” section about a third of the way down, keeping in mind the percentages above:
For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators (more on this later…). In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators.
And
For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%), and unwanted sexual contact (an estimated 54.7%). For noncontact unwanted sexual experiences, nearly half of male victims (an estimated 46.0%) had only male perpetrators and an estimated 43.6% had only female perpetrators.
To help us with the breakdowns of these numbers, earlier in the report we find that:
1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey [and] an estimated 1.3% of men experienced sexual coercion in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 1.6% of men having experienced unwanted sexual contact in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 2.5% of men experienced this type of victimization (noncontact unwanted sexual experiences) in the previous 12 months
So, of the 1.7% of made to penetrate male victims, 82.6% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.3% sexual coercion, 80% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, 54.7% were female, and of the 2.5% noncontact, 43.6% were female.
So, 1.4% of the 1.7% made to penetrate, 1% of the 1.3% sexual coercion, .9% of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, and 1.1% of the 2.5% noncontact.
So, 4.4% of the 7.1% of men reporting sexual violence had female perpetrators. That is, 62% of sexual violence against men is committed by women (in 2011).
So, going back to our numbers above, we see that 62% of the 42% of sexual violence with men as victims was committed by women.
Our final numbers are: 74% of sexual violence in total in the US is committed by men, and 26% is committed by women. Which ain’t great, but that feels a lot more realistic than “95%”, and it’s a far cry from the intentionally misleading numbers you’re citing.
BUT IT GETS WORSE…
What happens when we look at just rape? Note that first we have to figure out what the CDC means by “rape”, because at first “99% of rape is committed by men” looks pretty damning.
Well, “rape” is defined by the CDC for the purposes of this study as “completed or attempted forced penetration or alcohol- or drug-facilitated penetration”. That is, only being penetrated counts as rape.
Men, on the other hand, get the completely separate category “made to penetrate”, that is, “being forced to have sex with someone, just doing the penetrating instead of being penetrated.”
So, 99% of rapists are men because rape is intentionally defined as “being penetrated” to exclude male victims of rape from the statistics. I wonder why…
Well, what happens when we actually look at those numbers, counting “made to penetrate” as, y’know, rape, because it is rape?
an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey
And
The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
Which is, again, because male rape victims are effectively excluded from this definition. Also, we have this:
an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey
And
Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),
Note that these numbers clearly show that made to penetrate happens just as much each year as “rape”. This means that fully half of rape victims are men (in 2011 - the number fluctuates in the other years of the study, but not more than 5%).
Finally, if 99% of rapists are men and 83% of an equal number of “made to penetrators” are women … then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex (that is, rape) in 2011 were women.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it’s important to debunk this sort of misandrist misinformation.
Edit: Here’s a Time article that confirms these numbers. They also mention that boys under 15 are more likely to be sexually assaulted than women over 40, and are more than twice as likely to be assaulted as girls under 15. Again, this may be different for France, but it’s pretty damning for the US.
I’m not out to debate the statistics of “REAL problem” with you. I’m pointing out that it’s counterproductive (and I believe morally wrong) to tell survivors they’re unworthy because their abuser was a woman. I get the feeling some people care more about gendering this issue than they do about about victims of abuse.
Yeah literally no one is saying that a victim of sexual assault is unworthy of anything because their assaulter is a woman and not a man. We’re talking about the issue of men thinking it’s okay to sexually assault because it’s almost never fucking prosecuted.
Bringing up the statistic of female perpetrators is simply a way of deflecting the responsibility of men to acknowledge and hold accountability to their fellow men who commit sexual assault.
I’ve said it elsewhere in this thread but this is exactly the same as the gun enthusiasts bringing up mental illness statistics as a way of absolving guns of their role in gun violence.
Thread has a photo of a sign saying “not all men but always a man”.
Bringing up the statistic of female perpetrators is simply a way of deflecting the responsibility of
No. Bringing up the statistic is a way of correcting an intentionally skewed view that is vilifying men for no fucking reason. If you’re gonna be a dick about things, don’t go crying when you get shafted.
Since men are the primary perpetrators it’s not skewed not even a little bit. Yes, there are women who commit sexual assault but the number of women who do it is such a small percentage as to be almost statistically insignificant compared to the number of men who do.
Men commit sexual assault every single day and barely 5% of them get prosecuted for it. And every person who claps back with this idiotic argumentative excuse that “women do it too” is just feeding into a system that has made this world completely unsafe for women.
men are the primary perpetrators
the number of women who do it is such a small percentage as to be almost statistically insignificant compared to the number of men who do.
Men commit sexual assault every single day
barely 5% of them get prosecuted for it.
Citation needed
Listen, it’s very obvious we’re not on the same page. You’re responding to a comment thread that contains a comment literally contradicting most of your points, and you’re not being rational about it. You’re spouting wild claims with little regard for backing them up - it’s as if în your head, they’re axioms and not only do they not require proof, but invalidating them would mean the rest of the world crumbles. And I’m sure for you, that’s true.
All things considered, continuing this “discussion” brings no value to either of us. Have a good one.
Citation needed
Yeah, this just told me everything I need to know. I didn’t even read the rest of your comment. I’m just going to downvote you and move on.
The police who recite such stats in my area don’t consider me a victim of my repeated assaults, specifically because of my gender. I guess I should probably pipe down and stop being so uppity and hysterical though. After all my private parts are outside of my body so they’re basically asking to be used by anyone.
Yeah, the victims of women are just babies who should quit crying about being a victim. As if it’s a REAL problem, right? Who gives a shit, they’re just men they don’t have any feelings they’re just here for our entertainment.
I don’t like that sign. Sure, when she gets raped it’s probably a man but every time it’s happened to me so far it has been a woman, so, no not “always a man.”
“Good” news is that while I was forced to have sex (or else what was I gonna do fight her? Yeah that won’t end with me in cuffs) it isn’t rape because definitionally the worst women can do in my area is sexual assault, and people only care if you’re a minor, just try and report it as an adult. Most people just think “oh you’re a man you must’ve liked it” and just minimize it away because we’re just sex objects so who fucking cares, I just had to get the fuck over it and I did, but it still pisses me off that I’m literally the victim of this shit and treated like a perpetrator by default just because I happen to have a penis, it’s the ultimate “fuck you” on top really.
As a male SA victim I have been repeatedly told that it was my fault for having the privilege. So I guess “you’re welcome” to both of us.
Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of ‘not all men’ vs ‘basically all men’ threads
Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.
I’ll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It’s that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.
As a man, have this attitude (there’s subtitles).
As a woman… “Dudes it’s only an embellishment” “noone thinks ‘all men’ is meant seriously” STFU you’re being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don’t mean it like that right now, in this instance, it’s still how it’s perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.
Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.
I just came here to say “More power to her!”, she’s setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we’ve had in society since time immemorial.
Wow, so smart and supportive of you to pick a side and fling shit the other way.
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‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Otherwise, I’m absolutely in favour of rehabilitation, and if necessary, isolation of rapists - of all genders. I hope the court/government can be made to agree
From the article:
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
It seems that sexual violence has been hidden in plain sight and downplayed heavily by the police and justice system, or simply socially accepted.
It’s estimated 10% of people have been victim of incest, here in France. How can you build something safe based on that.
I don’t believe our current justice system allows for proper rehabilitation. Second offense for such crimes are still very high (10%?).
IMHO It’s a nation wide educational failure and our politicians aren’t really keen on fixing this, for now.
Keep in mind those numbers don’t perfectly reflect reality though. Probably a few percents off in favor of women
Were you responding to something specific I said or just providing more facts?
Just providing more facts on the “all men” plus maybe a bit more context on the situation here.
If you flag the same post multiple times again, you will be banned.
You cannot flag the same post multiple times on Lemmy.
You’re under the impression it is because it’s an exact copy paste comment multiple times in the same post which is the reason I flagged it as spam…
Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yes that 4% really really must be stopped.
Yes.
All of it should be. Why the fuck shouldn’t it be stopped too? Wtf?
Nice try from an overly quoted study done on bad faith, here is a better one that shows, with sources, that said study is incorrect.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
I like how he talks about the “overly quoted study” (which is not actually where the statistic in the article comes from, but whatever) and yet he has posted this same article literally everywhere in here as a way of justifying dismissal of the fact that nearly all rapes and sexual assaults are committed by men.
My heart breaks for her. I’m glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I’m not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.
guys always is an embellishment. it’s almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
The numbers are also suppressed for men because we are not believed or taken seriously whereas women are typically believed by default.
I mean even considering that. if we magically learned the real numbers today there should still be a grand canyon between them. if you think it’s any close you’re either fooling yourself or biased by personal trauma.
just as a note: the argument I’m making is not based on any essential characteristics of men vs women. I’m not arguing men are biologically coded to SA more or whatever. it’s about societal conditions. conditions which, by the way, contribute to the problem you’re talking about.
What ratio do you think has any meaning? What if the meaning is just that men have a higher “success rate” for just being better at it or even just being scarier. What if it just means men are more often consenting where they otherwise shouldn’t be?
Most men never report, or if they do it’s ignored. I’ve only told one person irl about the 2x it’s happened to me (both times I was forced by women btw, how’s that for “it’s always men” hmm?)
MAYBE if whenever we claim “it’s all men” or “it’s always men” or some such sentiment “it always devolves into a discussion about how it’s not all men,” MAYBE it’s time to stop doing that so the conversation can fucking progress? Nah let’s keep up the tribalism, it’s more fun to sow division than actually work on the issue at hand. Ffs.
Oh shit the MRAs are out in force in this thread 🙄
Real Redditor kinda behaviour going on here tbh.
Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Ok, so not so men but 96% of perpetrators are men.
This very precise statistic comes from a single study made in bad faith, over 20 years ago. If you want to read a more recent study, with linked sources, feel free to check https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
That percentage came from the 2021 report by the French government. This is not outdated information. And it’s pertains to France not America.
Dude just shut the fuck up about that study xD most rape is done by men towards women, quit acting like that’s just not the case. Women deserve to not be raped, can you just say that with no qualifiers?
I would prefer to say, nobody deserves to be raped, and as long as people keep giving that flawed statistic that harms both male and female victims of rape, I have no reason not to share it.
That kind of disregard is what keeps most female child rapists out of jail, or nets them far lesser sentences.
Let’s see how long it takes for rape apologists to show up
I’m a man who was sexually abused by a woman when I was a child. If I point out that the sign in the thumbnail is both untrue and is a dangerous oversimplification am I a rape apologist?
At least 3 unhinged morons agree that you’re a rape apologist.
I have encountered more lunatics on Lemmy than I have in any other place in my entire life. It’s fucking astounding.
Have you… Heard of the R word?
Bro they’ve been here the whole time, they’re just apologizing for woman perpetrators of male victims because it’s “only 4%” so who gives a shit about male victims, lump them in with the perpetrators.
I don’t think that happens here? One of the reasons I’ve stuck with lemmy is that it’s relatively nice.
The commenter probably saw the “Always a man” part of the protest sign and is daring someone to deny it.
It’s an unfortunate sign to feature in the main article picture because it distracts from the story. There’s no issue focusing on one part of an issue (victimization of women) and not all parts (sexual abuse and rape in general). But denying the larger problem exists is counterproductive.
It’s an unfortunate sign to feature in the main article picture because it distracts from the story.
Unfortunate but not a mistake. Like anything else in media, their only goal is to sew controversy and drive clicks and “engagement”. I can’t imagine any other reason why this would be the main photo of the article. I hope and do not believe that this is the kinda sexist bullshit that represents the majority.
Women can be victims of women too, though. Look at how many mothers have subjected their daughters to genital mutilation, for example.
I think it’s pretty reasonable to say, “please don’t use exclusionary language that implies some victims are more valid than others”.
Pointing out language that excludes a massive number of victims isn’t rape apology.
I’ll take the bait too because I’ve personally known a female abuser (never did anything to me but raped a 14 year old as a teacher) and it makes me furious that a so-called activist would not only disregard crime that doesn’t fit their narrative, but try to gaslight the rest of the world into doing it too.
I’d say it (E: not just rape apology, but misogyny in general) only happens a tiny margin less than on the rest of the internet, which is to say it still happens a whole fucking lot, even if they are sometimes a little less blatant with it.
E: in case the replies and the up/down vote ratios in this post alone isn’t evidence enough, the mod log sure shows what positions are defended in one of the biggest spaces on here.
USA Today - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for USA Today:
MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: Mostly Factual - United States of America
Wikipedia about this sourceMods, I know you’re in this thread, why haven’t you banned this paid advertisement spam bot that nobody wants?
