- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
An escalating series of clashes in the South China Sea between the Philippines and China could draw the U.S., which has a mutual defense treaty with the Philippines, into the conflict.
A 60 Minutes crew got a close look at the tense situation when traveling on a Philippine Coast Guard ship that was rammed by the Chinese Coast Guard.
China has repeatedly rammed Philippine ships and blasted them with water cannons over the last two years. There are ongoing conversations between Washington and Manila about which scenarios would trigger U.S. involvement, Philippine Secretary of National Defense Gilberto Teodoro said in an interview.
“I really don’t know the end state,” Teodoro said. “All I know is that we cannot let them get away with what they’re doing.”
China as “the proverbial schoolyard bully”
China claims sovereignty over almost all of the South China Sea, through which more than $3 trillion in goods flow annually. But in 2016, an international tribunal at the Hague ruled the Philippines has exclusive economic rights in a 200-mile zone that includes the area where the ship with the 60 Minutes team on board got rammed.
China does not recognize the international tribunal’s ruling.
You must log in or register to comment.
These comments are nuts, why are people happy about this? Did we swap over to sucking off china???
If you defederate from lemmy.ml most these commenters dissapear
I think people are mad that they keep nuking trade and trying to ramp up military involvement for a double solvable issue that would repair both the economy at home and negate a trade war with China.
Except that invovles proper market regulation and not slapping tariffs to protect monopoly profits.
Probably just hit a nerve with people that China’s usual tactics of slamming boats is suddenly worthy of America getting invovled just because a news crew was onboard, but 10 months of actual warzone genocide reporting in Israel means nothing to the government.
Either that or there’s just a bunch of pissed off tankies lmao.
Having looked, it’s pissed off tankies.
I mean I get that, but this is pretty separate from Isreal, and this is the third time I’ve seen them do this myself. Seems like it’s at least somewhat newsworthy. You can in fact have both the genocide news and this stuff too.
Can they somehow build the boat like a porcupine? Make it expensive to ram. Idk, dangle a directed sea mine on the side. Or something.
I feel like at that point you might as well put a few cannons on the boat.
The purpose would be to make it so the act of ramming is what causes them damage. Sure, they could actively attack the Chinese vessels, but it’d be a lot easier to claim no fault if the Chinese ship runs into you and that causes it to be damaged/destroyed.
I think having some hollow tipped spikes under the water line that detach and leave an inlet pipe in the Chinese ship could be a good idea. Explosive charges could be another option, but at what point is that an active or passive effect?
Reading the headline… Isn’t that running the ship aground?
Running a ship aground is something the crew does to their own ship. It does not involve other ships, only their own ship + the ground of a landmass.
That’s kind of the joke. “China rams Philippine ship…”. Like the country itself was ramming the ships.
Yeah, I think the joke isn’t working sorry.
Let’s go!
That’s how at least 2 sci-fi franchises begin. And it’s bad.
I am not in the know about this. What are they? And what happens?
- Star Trek - it’s a bit fuzzy, but the Eugenics Wars start around now-ish which lead into WWIII. So far, everything is happening more-or-less how the show predicted decades ago, with few discrepancies. It’s really creepy how accurate it all turned out to be. And while we all end up in socialist space utopia, it takes humanity about 130 more years to get there after a horrific nuclear holocaust and nearly a century of rebuilding after that. Also, all major governments destroyed and 600 million dead. It’s a big price to pay to turn the page on human history.
- Fallout - like the above, but worse. In the year 2077, after decades of escalating tensions between the US and China, a nuclear war erupts, devastating the surface of the earth. Even centuries later, humans struggle to rebuild and survive.
Only because I’m way too into the original lore, the war, iirc was started over a similar situation to what drew Japan into ww2. Oil resources were diminishing, China had far less available, and the US was happy to deny them theirs, so in 2066, they invaded Alaska. 11 years later, hasta lasagna.
Impressive. That’s correct.
And the Star Trek lore vs reality also isn’t exactly spot-on, but it’s close enough to be freaky.
And, one could argue, we’re also on-path for the future of The Expanse series, just due to our ongoing ecological disasters.
Massive source of frustration there. The last 3 books of that series were fucking epic and they uber glassed over them in the show. I mean, it’s not that I don’t appreciate the inherent difficulties, but Laconia could have been the next Caesars legion as far as modern canon is concerned. One lemmings opinion.
As someone who only saw the series, it was obvious how condensed and rushed the final season was. I felt disappointed and wanted a lot more.
We’re not going to get United Ireland in 2024. Star Trek is a lie.
Oh, now, never doubt the Irish. We’ve still got a few months left.
China does not recognize the international tribunal’s ruling.
The international tribunal did not have the standing to make the ruling that it did. China’s claim to the ECS predates the UN and the international court, the UN (lead by the USA) stole control over the sea and retroactively legalized their theft while China was fighting a civil war.
For the record, Taiwan claims precisely the same thing. But they’re a US-backed puppet regime so they can’t move against the US the way that the PRC can.
-
China’s claim is the same as Italy claiming the whole Mediterranean as their own because at some point the Roman empire claimed it (Mare Nostrum, literally “our sea”). That’s not how it works and it’s clearly bullshit
-
I didn’t see Taiwan ramming anyone, did I? Also Taiwan is claiming to be China and all that because the PRC wants to keep the status quo. If Taiwan were to publicly renounce their pre revolution status and declare themselves an independent nation it would precipitate a crisis with China.
Also Taiwan is claiming to be China and all that because the PRC wants to keep the status quo.
Taiwan actively asserts its ownership of the South China Sea.
https://en.mofa.gov.tw/theme.aspx?n=1462&s=40&sms=294
China’s claim is the same as Italy claiming the whole Mediterranean as their own because at some point the Roman empire claimed it
The claims of both the PRC and the ROC are based on their continued and historical use of certain islands in the sea. Vietnam makes the same claim. The tribunal ruled that those islands are too small to count. (Vietnam accepted the ruling. The PRC and the ROC both rejected the ruling.)
The Philippines, Malaysia, and Brunei base their claims to the sea on the concept of an Exclusive Economic Zone, which under international maritime law extends 200 nautical miles from their shores.
The tribunal ruled that those islands are too small to count.
Then it should be settled, no? It’s not the first time the UN commission refuses to recognize EEZ around uninhabited rocks in the middle of the sea
uninhabited rocks in the middle of the sea
Well, part of the issue is that they technically aren’t uninhabited anymore.
The largest naturally occurring island in the area is occupied by the ROC. A grand total of four civilians live there (and 220 troops). It has an airport that occupies the entire length of the island.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Island
Is four people enough to claim an island? Taiwan seems to think so, and they are a vital US ally.
There are several military bases by several countries, yes, including but not limited to the PRC.
at some point the Roman empire claimed it
False comparison. The treaties that established their claim is from the 19th century and were signed by their direct predecessor state.
The predecessor state still exists in Taiwan
Well, that’s a lie. It’s not from the 19th century, it’s from the 20th century. It’s not from a treaty, but a statement by the RoC government, and there was no signee, because it’s not a treaty.
Specifically, the RoC published a map in 1947 showing 11 dashed lines. Mao then adopted the claim after he took power and changed the map in 9 dashed lines, in 2013 then the PRC added a 10th line near Taiwan. Also the PRC ratified the UNCLOS in 1996, which should make the whole point moot.
It’s almost as if it’s made up bullshit to justify Chinese imperialism, don’t you think?
Source: just look at fucking wikipedia
Hyper focusing on the 11- or 9-dash line is a lie by omission. China’s usage of and claims to the area predate the Republic of China too, and are established in multiple treaties signed by the Qing with colonialist powers, which is what I was referring to. Like it or not the PRC is the successor government to the ROC even though the ROC still exists in Taiwan, that’s why the PRC eventually took over the UN security council seat, and because of that by precedent the PRC inherits the ROC’s territorial claims, who inherited them from the Qing.
1 - I’m not the one hyper focusing on the 9 or 10 or 11 dash line* China is the one hyper focusing
2 - there’s no treaty that specifically mentions those territories, which is why China has to resort to a made up map with some unclear made up lines. If there were a real treaty, they’d use that to argue
3 - Even if there were a treaty, the validity would be questionable. Is the treaty between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union regarding the partitioning of Poland still valid? Would a German invasion of Poland be justified by that treaty? Or by Russia?
4 - China has signed UNCLOS, a much more modern and real treaty, with clear laws. They then went to the UNCLOS tribune to plead their case and lost in court.
5 - it’s just imperialism. They want to control more territory, so they do
^(* Historical claims may vary depending on current political objectives )
5 - it’s just imperialism. They want to control more territory, so they do
Your definition of imperialism is straight out of the 3rd century BC, comrade.
-
Yikes.
China used “Fake Claim”. It was not effective.
Removed by mod
Cry harder western shill.
Removed by mod
What a weird take
Can’t wait for America to spend all it’s money defending an island in the South China Sea while homelessness skyrockets and no one can afford healthcare. Awesome priorities
Oh hi China.
How about that Tiananmen square massacre of students and civilians by the PLA on 4 Jine, 1989 though?
Someone get George Bush Sr on the phone and cancel the Nixon era free trade deal.
Oh wait, nevermind. Gotta have our treats.
Are you willing to fight and die for some islands on the other side of the world? Be my guest.
Well, I’m convinced!
Btw, if you get a raise or like a bonus or something for convincing an American, can I get a piece of that?
You’re the reason it sucks to live in America, you’d rather go to war with everyone than help your neighbor
Lol.
Let me guess, the west started the war with Ukraine too and America is making Ukrainians suffer by helping them too?
Yes, how dare we ram a ship in their own territorial waters without provocation.
Having worked in China, oh my god it’s somewhere between hell on earth and an open air prison, I’ll take the US any day.
Well, those goods do help support the non-homeless and the health-insured too. Maybe we can have both?
China bad propaganda. Instead of talking about the horrific civil war in Sudan, lets talk about ramming some ships and get the US involved in that… fucking insanity.
PS: Let me make this clear: I don’t give a shit about what China does unless it involves actual ethnic cleansing and mass rape. If we don’t give a shit about the latter, we shouldn’t “get involved” in the former.
Ok kiddo, I’m just gonna tell you the brutal truth.
Everyone likes the cheap stuff China makes, but we’re not comfortable with how they run things, so every time we’re reminded that they’re going to be the dominant global super power by 2100 we freak out a bit.
Conversely, Muslims killing Muslims in a country that doesn’t make anything we want isn’t that important.
I’m not saying this is how things ought to be, but it is how things are.
but we’re not comfortable with how they run things
If you’re not comfortable with totally eliminating extreme poverty, taking the largest steps of any country on the planet to combat climate change, and having a democratic government that exercises control over the capitalists rather than the other way around, then your comfort is not something worth caring about.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Any American can easily and freely research any topic you listed there.
Are you and your fellow Chinese allowed free access to information or only what your government allows? Why does China need state sensorship if not to protect their lies?
sensorship
Lol. You aren’t allowed to criticize your government without going to jail. How does that make you feel?
I really want to believe you typed that all out right now, but I guess either way, it’s also pretty batshit crazy to have that ready to copy and paste.
Also I spotted a 21 Savage in there somewhere. It’s almost like a word search.
Right? Who has that on hand and ready to go? Weirdos.
Uh if that’s meant for Americans we can’t read Chinese letters…
Also we freely research all of those topics.
Hell some of them are taught in school.
We didn’t start the fire
Yet another weird take
taking the largest steps to combat climate change
Don’t know now but up to a couple of years ago there where infinite traffic jams due to trucks carrying coal from the mines. Maybe you mean “to combat FOR climate change”.
80% of the world’s solar panels come from China and more than half of their electrical grid is from non-fossil sources. Coal plants are used as backups where they are still used at all. I’m sorry bud but it is simply an objective fact that China has invested more into a green energy transition than anyone else on this Earth.
Well if you don’t care what I think why bother with the propaganda?
PS: Let me make this clear: I don’t give a shit about what China does unless it involves actual ethnic cleansing and mass rape. If we don’t give a shit about the latter, we shouldn’t “get involved” in the former.
Funny you should bring that up… You should ask the Uyghurs in China about that.
Also, the world watched them impose their rule over Hong Kong, we watched their military murder their way through protesting civilians. We know what to expect from China, we’ve seen their playbook.
But Taiwan is an ally of the USA, Japan is an ally of the USA, and we will stand by them. There are many other sovereign nations in the waters of the South China Sea, China does not own all that territory.
It would be in China’s best interest to back the fuck off.
Removed by mod
That’s not how international politics works, though. It’s way too complicated but one key principle is “do what the treat says you agreed to do.” Because if you don’t do it once, you’re other Allies might not do it when it’s your turn.
That’s a gross oversimplification of course, but the point is that you don’t want to end up going all Putin and telling your smaller allies to fuck off.
I think you mean ‘treaty’? But i’m not 100% sure
Textbook whataboutism.
We should get involved.
The Chinese people deserve better than their occupying CCP regime.
Would that be before or after you elect a fascist “dictator on day one”? In a country where living costs make it impossible to have kids? Where healthcare spirals out of control and people don’t call an ambulance because of fear of bankruptcy? Where 12 year kids are forced to bear their rape babies to term? You are literally on the cusp of fascism you moron.
There is plenty wrong with China and ramming boats is not nice. But your ghoulish lust for blood and destruction is disgusting your fucking fascist prick.
Listen, China is going to start a war, their overall situation basically demands it, and we’ll win.
But if they decide not to, that’s fine too.
I’m not bloodthirsty, I’m just not remotely afraid of it, countries like Russia and China need to learn: “Don’t start nothin’, won’t be nothin’.”
And BTW, they’re never, ever, EVER getting Taiwan back.
Americans will bitch and cry about Chinese propaganda, then eat Pentagon press briefs up with a spoon and call you racist for questioning a headline.
You will never see China Coast Guard vessel helps rescue a Philippine fishing boat in distress near Huangyan Dao ora far more generic Two foreign-flagged ships collide off Corregidor Island, 2 dead. You’ll never have folks ask why these Philippine vessels are running aground and crashing into one another so often. Because that might suggest a problem with the enormously overstressed fisheries and ship channels all through the Pacific.
That might raise more general concerns about the unregulated nature of naval policy in a region dominated by private shipping companies.
So much easier to just run a parade of articles saying “Gulf of Tonkin! USS Maine!” on a loop.
We have the video. We can see the sea was not overcrowded by any means.
