A large number of EU resolutions on Ukraine are being blocked by Hungary, said Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielius Landsbergis.
Hungary is digging in and refusing to wave through billions in military aid for Ukraine, prompting growing dismay among other EU countries.
"I have to calm myself [when] I talk about this issue, because it’s getting really ridiculous now,” a senior EU diplomat said of the standoff with Hungary, speaking before Monday’s meeting of EU foreign ministers. “What’s happening is outrageous.”
Diplomats had hoped to have a new €6.6 billion package ready ahead of this week’s meetings of foreign and defense ministers in Brussels. The deal included €860 million for arms procurement, reported by POLITICO last week.
It is time to develop a way to remove nations who clearly don’t have the EU’s best interest at heart. Hungary is long overdue to be bounced from the EU.
While I understand the sentiment, such action doesn’t match the long term goals of the bloc to unify the continent. Another solution needs to be found to ensure single bad actors cannot hold up actions which severely impact the remaining stakeholders - I have no idea how it could be done though.
Xoxo, Another useless armchair observer
I think that is a fair point. One possible option would be to withhold any financial assistance to Hungary. As of 2021, they cost the EU 4.2 billion euros (https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/).
Noice. That makes €10.8billion for Ukraine.
Yeah, and they’d be a much, much better partner.
Ukraine isn’t in the EU.
Correct. But if we stop blowing money on Orban and his cronies, then it can be sent to Ukraine instead.
Ohhh, gotcha. I understand now. lol. It’s been a long morning…
Another long term goal of the EU is to promote peace and democracy across Europe.
Allowing Orbàn to further democratic backsliding at home and undermining of the EU’s democratic processes and missions goes contrary to that goal, and the usual withholding of EU funding isn’t a sentence at all to a quasi-dictator who revels in the fact that reduced funding means more social misery means easy elections for a populist who blames every problem on the EU.
Kicking out Hungary is a solution of last resort and we aren’t there yet, but in a system where Member States could turn totalitarian (and as Sovereign states we have no legal means to force out a dictator), exclusion must be on the table if we are to uphold our democratic values.
This is what makes the EU dysfunctional - there is not a way to bounce a member from the EU nor a way to override a member states veto. The state can even veto changes to try and override vetos.
The EU continues to exist in a black hole between a super state and a club of nations. Until it resolves that long standing conflict small states like Hungary can hold the whole EU hostage to its demands.
The problem is you’d have to override national sovereignty to get rid of Hungary and once you do that the EU suddenly looks much less democratic. The EU may be too big to force such a fundamental change through now.
The solution to the current problem is obvious - European nations should bypass the EU to provide funds for Ukraine. But that is not palatable to the EU as it undermines the EU itself, making it irrelevant to an area it’s trying to take control of - security.
Okay so an EU-only version of NATO. All that money goes through it. Thanks Hungary, problem solved.
They’d have to almost unanimously decide that being entirely unanimous is no longer required, bending the rules to change the rules, because that is the only way to unfuck themselves. Let Hungary object, but if they’re alone, write it into law anyway. What are they gonna do, leave? I guess if their membership is no longer useful to Russia, they might.
What if they were to have a rule such as 'if a state vetoes a bill that has like 90+% support 3 consecutive times, then they will be unable to veto the bill the 4th time. That way if its obvious all the other people agree on something to hold that strong a majority its not indefinite.
Removing isn’t a thing. Complete suspension of everything, very much yes. And Poland won’t save them now, doubly so over Ukraine.
I don’t think Serbia will ever become a member of the EU
War is bad.
Every day we extend this war, more and more people die, statistically mostly civilians. While we are spending billions on bombs, China spends billions on healthcare, education, and infrastructure.
And for what? So that the part of Ukraine that was trying to secede during the civil war has to stay? Because Russia is going to start a war with NATO after spending a hundred thousand lives trying and failing to avoid having most of its population and industry a few hundred miles from a hostile NATO member?
This is in nobody’s interest except the shareholders of weapons manufacturers.
Russia can end this war tomorrow. Any and all deaths are on them. Hell, if Russia would just stay out of their neighbours business, there would have been no civil war in the first place.
If Russia would quit invading their neighbours, their neighbours wouldn’t have had the motivation to join NATO in the first place (see Sweden and Finland as the most current examples).
their neighbours wouldn’t have had the motivation to join NATO
Joining NATO is not a defensive move, every single war its fought has been offensive in nature, and to quote Anthony Blinken “You’re either at the table or you’re on the menu”
Go hit the bottle again. It absolutely is a defensive move. Them and other countries near Russia were happy not being in NATO until Putin started attacking neighbors… He’s made it clear he wants to restore the USSR and its power…
Ukraine’s mistake was not moving faster/sooner to join NATO…
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“every single war it’s faught”
So that would be Afghanistan.
The Balkans were just generally on fire in the 90s and NATO enforced a no fly zone and sent peacekeeper forces after the fact.
There’s a few more peacekeeping missions and no-fly zones (Lybia for example), then some training missions, some humanitarian missions (Pakistan for example), a few air campaigns against non-state entities (“terrorists” but realistically that’s often just a matter of perspective), and a bunch of anti-piracy actions.
So it’s “every single war” with heavy emphasis on single.
Peacekeeping? Libya had the highest HDI of Africa before NATO’s “peace keeping”. But it’s hard to separate the blame of NATO and just America for arming the factions. Same with the balkins.
Libya had the highest HDI of Africa before NATO’s “peace keeping”
Dude, at least visit Wikipedia before you argue. Lybia was an example of NATO enforcing a no-fly zone, not peacekeeping. And Lybia’s HDI was back to pre-civil war levels three years ago (ie the 2021 data matches the 2013 data).
Are you going to pretend that Muammer Gaddafi was a benevolent and beloved dictator, and that there’s no way Lybians would want him to fuck off all of their own?
it’s hard to separate the blame of NATO and just America
No it fucking isn’t. NATO lists all actions they’ve taken part of on their website. If the action is there, it was NATO, if it isn’t, it was not a NATO action.
Strange, and which countries did NATO invade then?
Because the only case NATO was called was after 9/11, but since it was about invading an other country all of it was voluntary. So the majority didn’t even participate.
War is bad.
Nobody was trying to secede. Ukrainians would like to stay Ukrainian and it’s good to help people who want help.
What of the Russian-speaking population who was still in revolt before the invasion? You know the civil war and all that?
Oh the Russian speaking population that sprang up in rebellion from nowhere in pretty much a single day with a clear and organised command structure from day one, with matching gear, uniforms and weapons and a bizarrely poor understanding of the local geography despite supposedly being locals. You know they attacked a movie theatre because they thought it was a local government center? Those rebels? The ones the locals didn’t recognise? The ones whose casualty numbers had a weird correlation with Russian servicemen dying from unexplained causes? Those rebels?
Now I normally don’t call ‘Russian bot/troll’ too often but Russian propaganda about this is so poor I have a hard time coming to any other conclusion.
Do you honestly not know that most of eastern Ukraine speaks Russian? Like this is an easily verifiable fact you can just google.
Not everyone who speaks Russian wants to be Russian.
True, from the vitriol I’ve seen directed at Russians living in former Ukrainian territories, it’d genuinely be a toss-up whether they’d go with the guys who invaded and occupied them or the ones who passed anti-russian laws and have banderites talking about ethnically cleansing them in parliament.
There’s really no good outcome for anyone involved, and a longer war makes all of them worse.
I should really proofread my comments before I post them but then again you don’t strike me as worth the effort. I am well aware eastern Ukraine speaks Russian and has for a long time, I was talking exclusively about the rebels coming from nowhere.
Stop listening to Russian propaganda? By and large it didn’t exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine
This escalated into open civil war with Russia supporting one side and the US supporting the other until the invasion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas
They were fighting right until the day of the election. Zelensky was elected on a platform of ending the fighting, and he ordered them to do so, but the units refused to stand down.
They didn’t stand down because Russian troops on “vacation” kept getting lost. It was an invasion from the very start.
This is in nobody’s interest except the shareholders of weapons manufacturers.
You forgot about a country called Ukraine there buddy.
I gotta say, of all the conflicts going on in the world, Ukraine/Russia has got to be the one with the clearest “good” side and “bad” side. Pick another conflict to be edgy about.
For the people in Ukraine, this protracted war is the absolute worst possible outcome. Ukraine will never be a safe country again in either of our lifetimes. The state has had to privatize and sell off public assets like the power grid and take out massive loans. Ukraine will never be a prosperous country again in either of our lifetimes.
As far as black and white conflicts go, there’s a country currently dropping 2000 lb bombs on a tent-city of mostly starving children, that formed from refugees of it’s earlier bombing campaign, who are mostly refugees of even earlier ethnic cleansing campaigns.
While that is unfortunate, it’s still better than the alternative…
It absolutely is not. Nothing Russia could possibly impose on the people is worse than an entire generation of men lost to the meat grinder and the poverty that follows this kind of economic damage. A quick loss would have a million more Ukrainians living in their homes today instead of displaced throughout the world, and a hundred thousand still alive.
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I am shocked, shocked I say to see some one with a lemmy.ml account spouting talking points to back up vicious right wing dictatorships that are aligned against the west.
Well, maybe not that shocked…
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The reducro ad adsurdum of your position is that all states should immediately surrender to any sufficiently armed state which threatens them.
Correct, it would be absurd to apply that analysis to all states everywhere forever without any examination of the history or nuance.
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Ukraine will never be a prosperous country again in either of our lifetimes.
and who’s fucking fault is that? you have absolutely no sense of decency.
How decent can you be while supporting more bloodshed and immiseration?
I doubt your motives.
Decency would be supporting the victim, not justifying the aggressor.
The victims are the people. Every day this war goes on means more victims. The only reason I examine Russia’s reasoning is to predict future behavior, moral judgements on Russia or Putin’s character have nothing to do with this since the only moral action is what benefits the people.
You cannot allow aggressive states to just take other people’s lands.
.ml detected, opinion rejected.
Go back to your shithole tankie.
Oof that’s very closed minded of you.
Not really. Being open minded doesn’t mean you give equal credence to nut jobs, conspiracy theorists, racists, etc.
I wouldn’t listen to a Nazis opinions on Jews.
I wouldn’t listen to a zionists opinion on Palestine.
And I don’t listen to a tankies opinion on Ukraine.
That’s not at all what I meant.
I’m an ml user - just because it seemed okay to me when I first started with Lemmy - and now I learn it’s got a rep for being for tankies etc
If you look through my comment history you’ll see I’m probably just some lefty twit from Europe.
I by no means meant you should tolerate the scum that promote Putin or Pooh Bear’s agenda.
Just don’t assume everyone on .ml is a cunt. Be more open minded and less label driven.
If you don’t want people to lump you in with the tankies, you can simply not associate yourself with said tankies.
Just like I’m going to assume anyone on truth social is a right wing chritsofascist. There might be a dide on there that’s sane and alright, but I don’t care.
Oof that’s very closed minded of you
You are wrong.
This war is also in the interests of Putin.
Putin decided to start the war of aggression.
Putin invaded Ukraine.
Ukraine gave up its nuclear arms on the guarantee of security from Russia. Russia has violated that guarantee by invading them.
Putin can end the war today.
US can not end the war today. Even if it left Ukraine alone, Ukraine would still fight to the end.
EU can not end the war today. See above.
The fastest and easiest way to end the bloodshed is for Russia to withdraw today.
Leaving Ukraine to defend itself wouldn’t even end the bloodshed. After Russia has completed its revised objectives it would invade the entirety of Ukraine under newer revised objectives. Then it would invade other neighbours under other revised objectives. The bloodshed would continue until the USSR is reformed and a new cold war begins.
Those suggesting the only way to end the bloodshed is through capitulation to the aggressor need to study their history better to see that capitulation to the aggressor never stopped an aggressor, it just lead to them going further until stopped.
Imagine if the USA invaded Mexico - no one would be saying Mexico should end the bloodshed. And the USA’s adversaries sure as hell would be doing everything they can to help Mexico.
For those in the back: Putin withdrawing from his war of aggression is the only known way to end the bloodshed today. All other solutions would result in further bloodshed.
Even if it left Ukraine alone, Ukraine would still fight to the end.
Except they were engaging in serious peace talks back in March of 2022.
We could have had this same peace 2 years ago, and avoided so much needless destruction.
Except if you’d read the article you’d see that’s bullshit and doesn’t support your claim at all.
Quotes from the text: “And the Russians knew these provisions would make it more difficult for the Ukrainians to accept the rest of the treaty. They might, therefore, be seen as poison pills.”
“Still, the claim that the West forced Ukraine to back out of the talks with Russia is baseless.”
And calls it “putin’s manipulative spin”
It’s Foreign Affairs, literally a state-department mouthpiece, you have to read between the lines and understand the way they use emphasis and conjecture to manipulate the narrative.
The atomic unit of propaganda isn’t lies, it’s emphasis.
First of all, that’s your source, not mine. Also, if they wanted to keep their warmongering interests hidden why even publish that article? You make no sense
Secondly, really? Your argument is “you’re supposed to believe putin, not the ones that conducted interviews, did research and wrote the article”? That’s biblethumping-level of weak, c’mon… “Nooooo, you’re interpreting the holy texts wrong”
I didn’t say anything about believing Putin, I wouldn’t trust him as far as I can throw him. My point is that you have to read any media critically and understand how they are trying to twist the facts. I chose a state department-aligned source so you wouldn’t disregard it out of hand.
The fact is that Russia offered a peace deal that would have ended the war with Russia even giving back much of the territory it had taken 2 years ago, Zelensky pulled out of the peace talks when he had guarantees of unlimited support. The writer’s bias of course, makes them suggest that actually Russia didn’t really want Ukraine to accept the peace deal.
Pay walled.
Sorry, try the “bypass paywalls clean” plugin.
Hungary is aligned with Putin against the EU.
IF the EU won’t admit that, won’t deal-with that, THEN the EU will be more-completely-butchered when Trump guts NATO & backs his buddy Putin.
Natural Selection™ in action, people: they need to face actuality & grow the fuck up:
kick Hungary out.
Immediately.
They’re actively treachery against the EU, DEAL WITH IT!!
( morons “willingly going to the seconary-crime-scene in the hopes of using social-process to make things go better, there”…
WHEN SOMEONE IS TAKING YOU TO A SECONDARY-CRIME-SCENE, YOU ARE GOING TO BE BUTCHERED THERE: FIGHT TO THE DEATH IMMEDIATELY.
That has been explained by good-cops for many many many years.
Nobody learns.
Natural Selection is going to be unnecessarily pruning extra European lives, as a result of the EU’s retardedness, in the coming decade. )
Yep, Orban is a full blown dictator endorsed by Putin, if Trump wins, Europe will be in big trouble.
FUCK Hungary, kick them the fuck out already goddamn.
The EU isn’t going to kick out their scapegoat. Countries are perfectly capable of coordinating and sending aid without an EU resolution. If Germany, France, or anyone else wanted to send aid it would be in transit already.
Hungary is just waiting for another kick back before they give the green light. And they’ll get it, just like they did last time.
But there’s legitimately more to the EU than just two dozen countries agreeing to disagree. Unified support means opening Hungary up for logistical support as well. As a Ukrainian neighbor that’s also bordering the central European powers, their pivotal for moving materials into Ukraine.
Turkey might be too important to kick out. Also I have to wonder if the Kremlin would be happy to see them kicked out.
Can’t the EU ‘suspend’ Hungary’s membership until Orban the dictator is removed from office?
looks like it’s easy for their politicians to choose between Victor or Ban?
the EU needs to cast out Hungary.
It is not a situation that lends itself to simple views. A diplomatic solution would likely be so much more ideal that it’s worth eating a little shit to get it.
The EU is great because the alternative is a more tenuous grasp on peace. The EU is also not so great because there are a lot of bad things that are better than WWIII.
Kick em out
Why can’t we just let every country give individual aid to Ukraine to circumvent this?
Hungary can suck on Pootins shoes all it wants, it can’t influence other countries.
Hungry Hungary
This is the best summary I could come up with:
BRUSSELS — Hungary is digging in and refusing to wave through billions in military aid for Ukraine, prompting growing dismay among other EU countries.
Budapest, the EU’s most pro-Russian member, has blocked partial reimbursements for arms sent to Ukraine under the off-budget European Peace Facility (EPF) for almost a year.
There was a political agreement a few weeks ago to allow for the creation of the €5 billion Ukraine Assistance Fund under the EPF, but in recent days Hungary has again been hunting for reasons to kill the whole package.
German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock, who often clashes with Szijjártó, said all of the EU is paying a price for supporting Ukraine, citing the example of energy.
After the meeting, Szijjártó warned of an “insane” idea of imposing compulsory conscription across Europe to bolster Ukraine’s diminishing manpower, saying Hungary wanted no part of such a scheme.
Ministers from the Baltics, as well as EU top diplomat Josep Borrell, asked Szijjártó for more details on the alleged discrimination that Hungarian companies faced, and also criticized Budapest.
The original article contains 717 words, the summary contains 175 words. Saved 76%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
It’s paywalled
No it isn’t
Forget it - I’m clicking the wrong link.
The link in the bot summary goes somewhere else that is paywalled.
Can you read to the end ?
It cuts off half way down .
